Better defense: 2015 Broncos or 2013 Seahawks?

The 2015 Broncos made their case for best defense of the PFF era—but do they stack up to the 2013 Seahawks?

| 8 months ago
(AP Photo/Joe Mahoney)

(AP Photo/Joe Mahoney)

Better defense: 2015 Broncos or 2013 Seahawks?


The Broncos’ defense is fresh off one of the greatest playoff runs of all time, holding three of the top four scoring offenses to an average of 14.7 points per game in the playoffs.

Obviously the Broncos’ defense carried them through the postseason, but was their season, as a whole, the best we’ve seen in the PFF era (2007–2015)? Let’s dig through the numbers and compare them with the reigning top defense, the 2013 Seattle Seahawks.

Team Run defense grade PFF era rank Pass rush grade PFF era rank Pass coverage grade PFF era rank
2015 Broncos 111.3 2nd 130.3 1st 33.2 37th
2013 Seahawks 45 27th 90 5th 85.3 1st

Above are the unit grades for each team, as well as how those grades rank among all NFL defenses of the PFF era (again, 2007–2011 only). The Broncos clearly have the advantage in run defense, while the Seahawks’ secondary was unrivaled. The pass rush for each team was outstanding, so we’re going to have to dig a little deeper to get a better picture.

The league average for points per game for 2013 and 2015 was 23.1 points per game. When we look at how often both defenses allowed more than that league average, the Seahawks come out ahead. Seattle only gave up more than 23.1 points twice in 19 games, while the Broncos did it four times. The Seahawks yielded just 20 touchdowns on 990 plays compared to 29 for Denver on 1,033. At their worst, they both gave up 34 points, but the problem with using points allowed as a measuring stick is the fact that it can be impacted by their respective offenses.

When it comes to yardage, the 2015 Broncos outshine the 2013 Seahawks. Denver never give up 400 yards of offense in a game, while Seattle did twice—both, however, gave up an average of 4.4 yards per defensive play. So, clearly Denver’s offense was negatively impacting their defensive scoring metrics at times.

With everything else seemingly a wash, we’ll look at when both defenses were at their very best—this is where the Seahawks really shine. In the 2013 season, Seattle held seven of their opponents under 10 points, while the 2015 Broncos pulled off that feat just once. They also held seven opponents under 250 total yards, while the Broncos only did that three times. And then, when you take the most dominant performance from each—which coincidentally both occurred in Super Bowls—the 2013 Seahawks once again have the edge. Seattle held the highest-scoring offense of all-time (the 2013 Broncos, coincidentally) to a measly eight points, 306 total yards, and scored as many points on their own as the Broncos did offensively in Super Bowl XLVIII.

There is no shame in being the second-best defense in the PFF era, but the 2013 Seahawks still reign supreme.

| Senior Analyst

Mike is a Senior Analyst at Pro Football Focus. His work has also been featured on The Washington Post, ESPN Insider, and 120 Sports.

  • AJ

    People also need to consider that Denver had an incredible 5 wins this season against teams that eventually made the playoffs. Their only losses against such teams were the Chiefs and Steelers (whom they beat when they saw them again).

    For comparison, the Panthers won 4 such games, Patriots won 3 (2 of which were the Redskins and Texans), and 2013 Seahawks won 3.

    • WHu

      The 2014 Seahawks won an *incredible* 5 of their 6 games against teams that made the playoffs (Packers, Broncos, Panthers, Cards x2), too. What’s your point?

      • anon76returns

        Seems like an argument on whether 2015 Panthers’ or 2015 Broncos’ defense was better. In Broncos’ fans defense, we’re still coming down from the SB-winning high, so reading comprehension is going to be a bit sluggish at this point.

      • Aaron McFarland

        and they should have beat the Patriots…if they just fed the beast.

      • AJ

        My point is that the NFL 16-game schedule is a small enough sample size that a few tough or easy opponents can really skew a lot of numbers that people look at. Denver had a tough schedule and came out on top. They were more battle-tested, and successful in those games, than any team in the playoffs this year.

  • anon76returns

    Seems an odd way to decide who was the best. You could just add up the grades for each unit over the season, since that is PFF’s speciality. In that case the edge goes to Denver. Or you could look at points/drive + yards/drive allowed. The Broncos defense was better at yards/drive allowed (24.5 vs. 26.6), while the Seahawks had a clear edge in points allowed per drive (1.22 vs. 1.43, both best in the league for their respective seasons), but then some of that could be attributed to the difference in starting field position- the Seahawks defense averaged starting at the opponents’ 25.9 yard line (6th best for the 2013 season), while the Broncos started at the opponents’ 29.5 yard line (4th worst in 2015), so clearly the Seahawks’ were benefitting more from complementary ST & offensive play than the Broncos.
    Focusing completely on the SB results seems a bit strange as well. But if you want to do that, it’s worth looking at the fact that the 2015 Panthers scored 10 points in 16 drives 0.625 points/drive), while the 2013 Broncos scored 8 points in 11 drives (0.727 points/drive). Also, the 2013 Broncos offense got to the Seahawks 19 yard line, but turned it over on downs due to the game situation, again indicating that the Seahawks were getting much more support from their offense and ST than the 2015 Broncos defense was. Looking at defensive scoring, the Seahawks defense scored off an pick-6, and benefitted from an errant snap on the first play of the game (which the Seattle defense had virtually nothing to do with), while the Broncos defense scored on a strip-6 and set up the offense at the 4 yard line after another strip sack.
    So who do I think was a better unit? It absolutely depends on which statistic you look at, which means that it is impossible to truly say which one was better. They were both excellent defenses, and belong right up there with the ’85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, and 2002 Bucs’ defenses in discussions of the best ever.

    • Darnell

      Yeah, but look at the QBs who the ’85 Bears and 2000 Ravens beat – nowhere close to Newton and Manning.

      • Ben G

        2015 Manning wasn’t very good.

        • Darnell

          I’m referring to Seattle’s ’13 D beating ’13 Manning, and Denver’s ’15 D beating ’15 Newton.

          Both feats are considerably more impressive than beating Kerry Collins and Tony Eason/Steve Grogan.

          Adjust for the rules becoming even more favorable for offenses since then, and the Seahawks and Broncos D’s look even more impressive.

      • TheTruth

        Any defense with a top 3 pass rush can neutralize any offense i.e. 2013 broncos 2007 pats (which was nasty with a QB in his physical prime) i.e. the 3 offenses the Broncos shut out in the ‘offs this year

      • TheTruth

        Add in the fact that the LT and RT positions had backups playing and i could pressure the QB out there

    • eYeDEF

      which means that it is impossible to truly say which one was better.

      It’s not impossible at all. The 2013 Broncos offense is considered the greatest offense of all time. The Seahawks defense held that offense in the SB to 8 points. Nor is it strange at all to focus on SB results since that’s when the cream of being called ‘greatest’ rises to the very top. It’s really not complicated.

      • anon76returns

        LOL! Perfect. Then considering how many opportunities the Carolina offense had (16 drives vs 11 for the 2013 Broncos offense), their relative scoring pace in the rest of the playoffs (3.57 points/drive for 2013 Den, 3.14 ppd for 2015 Car), and the fact that the 2013 Broncos offense decided against a chip shot field goal, I declare the 2015 Denver defense as the greatest of all time!! Easy-peasy.

        • eYeDEF

          Sorry but the logic I deployed was understandable. Yours was convoluted and irrelevant. The emphasis should rightly be on the Super Bowl seeing how it’s the game for all the marbles and their respective unit’s best performance. Who cares that they opted against a chip shot field goal? It was a gamble taken to try and secure better field position to score touchdowns. It failed. Doesn’t change the fact that Denver’s 2013 offense was the greatest offense of all time we’re talking about held to 8 points. The Panthers were not.

          • anon76returns

            Sure, I’m taking your exact logic: The Super Bowl is the most important game, therefore nothing else matters, right? So the 2013 Broncos scored 8 points in 11 possessions- meaning they scored 0.73 points per drive. The 2015 Panthers scored 10 points in 16 possessions- meaning that they scored 0.63 points per drive. Therefore the Broncos defense is better. Appealing to the “Denver’s 2013 offense was the greatest offense of all time” is to take the argument beyond the specific performance of the Super Bowl, which is irrelevant because the SB is for all the marbles. So, clearly the Broncos defense was more impressive.
            If you do want to weight the historic nature of the 2013 Broncos offense, then naturally you should compare how much they were scoring per drive to how much the 2015 Carolina offense scored per game. The 2013 Broncos scored 2.98 points per drive, meaning that the Seahawks held their offense to 24.4% of their normal scoring output in SB XLVIII. The 2015 Panthers scored 2.57 ppd, meaning that the Broncos defense held them to 24.3% of their normal scoring output. Once again, the Broncos’ defense outperforms the 2013 Seahawks’ defense.
            If you want to broaden the argument a bit more, then the next thing to take into context is the fact that the Seahawks defense gave up a drive inside their 20 yard line that would have ended in a chip shot field goal. The fact that the Broncos didn’t kick a field goal there had to do with how the Seattle offense had actually been putting points on the board, and shouldn’t be credited as a stop by the Seattle defense if we’re just asking which defense put on a more impressive showing. Had the Broncos elected to kick there, Prater was 5/5 on the season from 30-39 yards, and 56/62 from that range over his career, meaning you should add in 2.7-3 points to the Broncos’ offensive output when only considering what the Seahawks “allowed”. In that case, the Seahawks would have been allowing 32.6%-33.6% of the Broncos’ normal scoring output, making the gap between the SBXLVIII Seahawks’ defensive performance and the SB50 Broncos’ defensive performance more substantial.

            The only way you can say that the Seahawks defensive performance was more impressive is by either hand-waving away the actual numbers and just appealing to “greatest offense ever” (lazy), or by relying solely on the # of points scored without looking at how many drives each respective offense had (not rigorous).

          • Carson

            all i have to say is ’85 bears.

          • anon76returns

            They were excellent, but pre-date both PFF and FO statistics, so it’s really hard to compare them with any of the more modern defenses. For my money, the ’85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs, 2013 Seahawks, and 2015 Broncos defenses are all up there as “the greatest”, along with probably e.g. the Steelers’ Steel Curtain defenses that predate my experience.

          • TheTruth

            He doesnt realize how easy it is to dominate an O with pass rush, they had the best that year like the Bronocs this year, except the panthers werent missing there LT, and they didnt have to move their RT over leaving a rook to face Von. The game wouldve been ugly. He also forgets how much different the game wouldve been if the Seahawks were missing a guy like Von, and there best run defending DT, and a safety, which helped keep the Broncos on the sideline (11 drives) also “lmao i love how he ignores” the fact that momentum is huge in sports, especially football and the hawks got the ball and 2 points the first play. Like i told this chump hater who argues with everyone, take out the hawks’ starting OLB(who also happened to be their mvp) #1 corner #2 safety #1 DE #2 DT #1LT with a nobody at RT vs the best rusher that year

          • eYeDEF

            Yeah the panthers had it worse with Mike Remmers as a starter in pass pro. Game, set, match. You lose.

          • TheTruth

            you’re and idiot, “set match” l! remmers is the second best Tackle on their roster, he was a starter, he hadont given up a sack throughout the PLAYOFFS (2 GAMES)

          • eYeDEF

            Look it up. Remmers is the worst starting tackle in pass pro as rated by PFF. Their other tackle is one of the worst at run blocking and Olsen is the worst starting tight end in the league. Game, set, match.

          • TheTruth

            idc what his grade was, he faced top defenses 3 games in a row and only one rusher had anything close to success, do you not realize he didn’t give up a single pressure? as in no one got near cam, neither did their other tackle, that means 4 pass rushers did less vs their Tackles in 2 games, than von did in one pressure, he dominated, no one wouldve stoppedhim, not even a tackle that hadn’t given a pressure, hit, or sack for 3 weeks

          • eYeDEF

            Of course you don’t care what his grade was because you’re a homer so you’re going to selectively disregard any evidence that contradicts your homer fantasy. That’s what homers like you do. It doesn’t change the facts though. Remmers was the worst starting OL in pass pro at LT because as recorded by PFF he gave up more sacks during the season than any other starting LT in the league. Facts are facts homer boy.

          • TheTruth

            no he wasn’t first off, show proof, and im saying idc what his grade was because when it mattered most, when he played a top 10 pass rush in AZ, and a top 5 pass rush in SEA, he didn’t give up a SINGLE PRESSURE, not one. and then he got dominated. it’s not like he’s some below average young kids who was also playing like ass in the playoffs.

          • eYeDEF

            First of all, no one would say Arizona had a good front four last year, it was distinctly mediocre. Second, the only reason Remmers had a good playoffs is because his team built early leads and so he DIDN’T HAVE to pass block as much.

            BTW, EVERYONE was predicting before the SB that Miller would exploit Remmers because he sucks. Everyone already knew Remmers played well in the playoffs because he didn’t have to pass block. Here’s Peter King, the most widely read NFL writer among NFL fans and who writes for Sports Illustrated and MMQB before the Super Bowl.:

            And that leads us neatly to the biggest mismatch of the whole game: How will right tackle Mike Remmers deal with the one of the best five edge rushers in football, Von Miller?

            Remmers has had a good postseason to date, not giving up a single pressure, but most of that has been predicated on the Panthers’ ability to get out in front early and run the football. Against Seattle he was asked to run block almost twice as much as pass protect, and that makes a linemen’s job much, much easier. Over the season though, things have been different. He has struggled to a degree against every type of rush—inside (28% of pressure), outside (30% of pressure) and bull-rush (33% of pressure). Now he’s going against a player who brings all of those skills in abundance. Miller has a superb speed rush and that devastating dip round the corner, he also has the ability to “jag” inside and then burst, almost at right angles, into the back-field, and to add insult to injury he also utilizes the plain outright power to unsettle even the most robust of tackles on the bull-rush. There’s no doubt Carolina will need to help him in some way.

            As predicted Remmers got schooled because he was the BIGGEST MISMATCH OF THE GAME. You’re probably the only little boy in the country who thinks Remmers is a great tackle. It’s crazy and there’s clearly something wrong with your head.

          • TheTruth

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/806ae36007682d3143e9368f01fb8cb90076db25cd28fae598240105d69b33b0.png weird because our RT allowed more sacks than him in reg and post season smh homers

          • eYeDEF

            So what? Your replacement tackle didn’t surrender any sacks in the postseason either until they faced the force of the Seahawks crushing pass rush homer. That’s because they went against a superior team and lost. Just look at the score, it’s really not complicated.

          • eYeDEF

            Nope. I never said nothing else matters. I was just pointing out the fallacy in your attempt to mitigate the importance of the SB when you said:

            Focusing completely on the SB results seems a bit strange as well

            Because well first of all, PFF didn’t focus completely on SB results. Here’s a refresher:

            In the 2013 season, Seattle held seven of their opponents under 10 points, while the 2015 Broncos pulled off that feat just once. They also held seven opponents under 250 total yards, while the Broncos only did that three times.

            So if you don’t want to focus only on the Super Bowl let’s keep that factoid in mind.

            But the justification for focusing on the SB was plainly stated here:

            And then, when you take the most dominant performance from each—which coincidentally both occurred in Super Bowls—the 2013 Seahawks once again have the edge. Seattle held the highest-scoring offense of all-time (the 2013 Broncos, coincidentally) to a measly eight points, 306 total yards, and scored as many points on their own as the Broncos did offensively in Super Bowl XLVIII.

            So again, I’ll have to repeat, your logic was convoluted and irrelevant. Mine was clear even though you keep trying and fail to twist it to mean what I never said. Apparently PFF agrees with me, and I with them.

            So I’ll just offer these words of consolation by them to you:

            There is no shame in being the second-best defense in the PFF era, but the 2013 Seahawks still reign supreme.

          • anon76returns

            LOL!
            Ok, hoss. So the fact that the Broncos held their SB opponents to less points per drive means the Seahawks played better. Remind me again how my logic was convoluted and irrelevant?

          • eYeDEF

            Again, was the Panthers offense the greatest offense of all time? Not even close. Love how you keep ignoring this fact that destroys your point.

          • anon76returns

            The Broncos defense held their opponents to 24.3% of their season average output. The Seahawks held their opponents to 24.4% of their season average output. The Broncos outperformed the Seahawks’ D, even accounting for how prolific the 2013 Denver offense was.
            I love how you don’t seem to understand that, but still go on insisting you’ve destroyed my argument.

          • eYeDEF

            lol. You’re actually trying to argue that a difference of one tenth of one percent isn’t essentially a wash?! rofl. You’re just acting desperate now, throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks because you have no real ammo. You’ve made zero case that Broncos outperformed Seattle’s while accounting for Denver’s best offense of all time. You’ve merely asserted it. That’s the hilarious part. You think assertions pass for an argument. FYI epic fail by you because they don’t.

          • anon76returns

            Funny stuff, from a funny guy. It is amusing watching you try to dig upwards. Hopefully you don’t mind if I kick some more dirt in.

            First off, here’s what I said, that you took contention with: “So who do I think was a better unit? It absolutely depends on which statistic you look at, which means that it is impossible to truly say which one was better. They were both excellent defenses, and belong right up there with the ’85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, and 2002 Bucs’ defenses in discussions of the best ever.” I think both defenses played fantastic- you’re the one trying to say there was a clear edge.

            Second of all, there’s no statistical bonus for beating the best ever. Denver’s 2015 defense dominated Carolina’s offense, and Seattle’s 2013 defense dominated Denver’s offense. You can account for how much better 2013 Denver’s offense was by normalizing by each offense’s normal output- doing so shows that the domination was roughly equal, with an insignificant 0.1% edge to the 2015 Denver defense.

            Thirdly, FO has consistently stated that weighted values for DVOA are worse at predicting playoff performance than season-long DVOA. In other words, you’re quoting the wrong stat, and trying to hide it by not pointing out that you’re referring to weighted DVOA. Once we remove the subterfuge:
            Denver’s defensive DVOA in 2015: -25.8% (not -22.1%).
            Seattle’s defensive DVOA in 2013: -25.9% (not -30.0%).
            To further quote you “Any statistician could tell you one tenth of one percent is essentially a wash!!!”
            What do you know, for once I agree with you!

            Fourth off, I love the lecture on statistics and ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE. Not to try to humiliate you too much in public (a task for which you are far better suited than I), but in most human cultures we use a base-10 number system, probably because we have 10 digits on our hands. In a base 10 system, one order of magnitude is a factor of 10, and orders (plural) of magnitude would imply at least a factor of 100. 33.5% is not 100+ times greater than 9.9%. In fact, even if you were somehow living in a base 2 society, 33.5% would be slightly less than 2 orders of magnitude. In other words, you’re spouting complete nonsense. If you’re going to try and tell me I have no clue about statistics, you might want to check up on your own statement first.

            Remember: dig upwards!

          • eYeDEF

            Funny stuff, from a funny guy. It is amusing watching you try to dig upwards. Hopefully you don’t mind if I kick some more dirt in.

            I actually agree with YOU for once, this is actually really funny but not for the reasons you stated. It’s very hilarious seeing as how YOU are the one trying to ‘dig up’ by disputing PFF’s judgement on who deserves the crown. So you’ll have to excuse me while I pause and laugh. LOLOLOL. Ok now where was I? Oh yes, so if you’re the one actually trying to ‘dig up’ that places me in the enviable position of kicking more dirt IN and ON. HOEHOEHOE.

            Second of all, there’s no statistical bonus for beating the best ever. Denver’s 2015 defense dominated Carolina’s offense, and Seattle’s 2013 defense dominated Denver’s offense.

            No one ever said there was what you call a ‘statistical bonus’. But PFF is basing that recognition on how they graded Denver’s offense overall in 2013 compared to the Panthers offense this past season. The recognition of the superior feat of beating the best offense of all time over a far lesser one on their grading scale is an understanding that anyone with common sense would recognize except, apparently, you. Instead, you’re willing to disregard PFF’s ‘valid opinion on performance’ that you appealed to in the other thread, arbitrarily with no rhyme or good reasons. I’m also giving you the benefit of the doubt here that you possess at least some common sense. You’re welcome.

            Fourth off, I love the lecture on statistics and ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.

            And you know what? This is where I fully don’t mind owning up that I lost my mind for a minute when I meant “standard deviations greater”. Even accounting for different standard deviations for each team, that’s significant. I admit, I was having so much fun getting caught up in talking smack while kicking dirt ON and IN that in a glib state of bliss I unwittingly used a term that just sounds much more badass. But regardless, my point stands. It goes back to how a crushing defeat of the greatest offense of all time is significantly more impressive than a crushing defeat of a far lesser offense. How much more impressive? Well that’s an easy one too, by the difference in the potency between the offenses they respectively crushed. And again, transparent to anyone with common sense except apparently you. So even if you want to call their reg season respective performances a push because the stats back that up, it’s this fact that makes the difference indisputable. PFF agrees.

          • anon76returns

            This is an article by Michael Renner, not the PFF staff. This isn’t a game grade (which gets vetted by several different staff members), or all Pro consideration where there has to be some consensus among staff members. This is essentially Michael’s opinion. Generally he does a good job, but here he was being facile. He doesn’t look at points per drive, doesn’t look at scoring opportunities that weren’t converted outside of the influence of the respective defenses, and he doesn’t consider the SB performance in light of how each offense performed in the regular season. In my opinion those are all very important points in considering who was best, so while I generally agree with PFF’s grading system, I do take issue with this opinion piece.
            You, on the other hand, have offered no statistical basis supporting your argument. It’s just “anyone can see” and “Denver’s offense was clearly better”. I agree that the 2013 Broncos’ offense was better, but when I took into account how much better they were (by normalizing by respective points per drive), I still saw the 2015 Broncos’ performance as being on par with the 2013 Seahawks performance. You’ve offered nothing to refute that analysis, other than smugness and an apparent glib attitude towards precision in mathematical terminology.

          • eYeDEF

            Generally he does a good job, but here he was being facile. He doesn’t look at points per drive, doesn’t look at scoring opportunities that weren’t converted outside of the influence of the respective defenses, and he doesn’t consider the SB performance in light of how each offense performed in the regular season.

            Hilarious since you are definitely being the ‘facile’ one bringing up points I already debunked for your benefit. “scoring opportunities that weren’t converted” WAHAHAHHAA. Still smarting over that decision to punt when I already explained to you that it was irrelevant eh? That was a FIELD POSITION HEDGE taken to try to score touchdowns that didn’t pay off when the defense couldn’t hold on the subsequent drive. If they had held and the offense scored a touchdown you wouldn’t be crying right now about the touchdown not counting because they should have scored a field goal. Your team rolled the dice by doubling down on your defense and you LOST by coming up empty. Nor is a field goal just automatic. Your argument here is ridiculously facile. Renner was right not to pay attention to something so trivial. Reg season was already push, you even admitted it. So good thing Renner didn’t assign undue weight to the Broncos for that too. He doesn’t have your built in bias (or mine either for that matter, which is why you should listen to him). So the brutal breakdown of what you’re crying about is a tenth of a point difference in points per drive that’s supposed to somehow override the epic canyon between the Panthers vs the Greatest Offense of All Time. WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. And you accuse Renner of being facile? You should really listen to yourself because what you claim is just absurd. And you really are being presumptuous. How do YOU know this article wasn’t vetted by at least Hornsby? After all it is for the crown of best defense in the PFF era. The fact is that you don’t, you just completely made that up to justify your hypocritical claim that Renner is being ‘facile’ which just belies how desperate you are. Bottom line is that as publisher and editor in chief, Hornsby is obligated to approve and stand behind every article published on this site. It’s his baby. If he doesn’t do it himself for all his articles, at MINIMUM an editor in his employ that he trusts DOES. But this is not some pedantic article buried in the fantasy section. There’s no reason to think he wouldn’t read and approve a general interest article like this for public consumption about the Super Bowl winning defense and how it compares as the greatest of PFF defenses of all time getting the heaviest traffic and potential controversy. And there’s ZERO reason to think this topic wasn’t debated by staff before it went on the site either. Sorry kid, but your defamatory reasoning here is facile.

            So I’ll repeat it again for your benefit. A crushing defeat of the greatest offense of all time is significantly more impressive than a crushing defeat of a significantly lesser offense. Why? Because it’s simple and irrefutable logic. Of course you can’t see such a convincing refutation because you’ve got your homer goggles screwed on too tight. It’s the same instinct that drove you to actually mount a long, whiny, hysterical complaint against PFF that CJ Anderson should have been PFF All Pro last season with less than 50% of your team’s offensive snaps. Everyone else easily saw through your facile and frankly asinine logic except you. The delusional homerism you’re afflicted with will do that.

            And BTW, I’d rather be momentarily glib than habitually facile.

          • anon76returns

            Glad to have taught you a new word like facile, but unfortunately you appear to not understand its meaning. Facile means superficial, as in an analysis that simply states the Seahawks throttled the best ever offense so there is no need for looking deeper.
            What I did was the opposite- I actually took into account how much better Denver’s 2013 offense was. Even after doing that, Seattle’s SB performance was not more impressive than the Denver defense’s 2015 SB performance. Eventually that will sink in, but I’m not holding my breath.

          • eYeDEF

            Actually my point was that your poor powers of examination exposed you as predisposed to being facile. I just h your facile reasoning. I also pointed out to you why your arguments are facile, because you have poor powers of examination when your arguments were non-arguments. You should re-read the post.

            You didn’t take it into account, that’s why you kept dismissing it until now when I kept calling you out that you were forced to address it. And like I said, EVEN THEN you are ignorantly arguing that a difference in one tenth of a points per drive (which again, is a trivial difference that’s pretty much a wash) somehow makes OVERCOMES your heroic “taking into account the difference”?

            WAHAHAHAHAHHAHA. You actually think anyone would buy such a weak claim?

            Sorry dude, you’re just acting like a sore loser. You should STAY OFF THE WEEEEED!

            Your argument was utterly facile.

          • anon76returns

            LOL! I know it’s just a waste of my time to keep repeating this in the hope that you’ll finally understand. But what the hell!
            The 2013 Broncos offense’s claim to fame as the “greatest offense of all time” is purely based off of scoring. They didn’t gain the most yards, or anything else that you could use to say greatest ever. So how do you take into account how effective the 2013 Seahawks defense was at limiting them? You ask how much the Seahawks defense limited the Broncos offense relative to their average scoring output. 0.727 points per drive in SB/2.98 points per drive in the regular season = 24.4% of their normal scoring output. Do you see how that accounts for how great the Broncos offense was in 2013?
            Now, what happens if you do the same thing for what the 2015 Broncos D did to the Carolina Panthers? 0.635 points per drive in SB/2.57 points per drive in the regular season = 24.3% of their normal scoring output. Once again, this is a statistic that takes into account how good that offense was.

            The 2013 Seahawks held their opponents to 24.4% of their usual scoring output, while the 2015 Broncos held their opponents to 24.3% of their usual scoring. In a metric that takes into account the record setting nature of Denver 2013 offense, the 2015 Broncos’ defense outperforms the 2013 Seahawks defense, albeit by a trivial amount. Once again, this underscores the point that I’ve been making since you first raised your objection- they were both truly great defensive performances.
            Hopefully you can figure it out. Don’t be afraid to ask for pictures if you need them!
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jl4iL6hCqs

          • eYeDEF

            WAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

            All your latest explanation proves is the depths you’ll stoop to deceive yourself. That was truly pathetic because you STILL did not address the heart of the issue, which is the outsized SUPERIORITY of the Broncos ’13 offense to the ’15 Panthers. Obfuscating this reality by using only one metric to judge them that you minimize further into a .92 points per drive differential in output is once again you being facile. PFF did NOT use such a superficial means to crown the Denver offense the greatest of all time. They have their own grading and metrics they used to determine that. Nor does FO reflect the Panthers offensive DVOA as anywhere in the same league. Points might be a great and convenient way for the layman to understand why the ’13 Denver offense is crowned the best of all time. But one metric alone is hardly sufficient in summarizing offensive production in football when it’s hardly comprehensive. That’s why advanced stats sites like this would never use such a facile how-to-lie-with-stats argument to trivialize the difference between the ’13 Broncos and ’15 Panthers offenses. Nor does your attempted minimization pass the almighty eye test comparing the lineups of each offense. Weak parlor trick on your part that fools no one except your homer self.

          • anon76returns

            You still don’t get it. Amazing, but hardly surprising. It isn’t the 0.92 points per drive that I’m talking about. I’m talking about what happens when you take those figures and account for how good each team was in the regular season. Some day you’ll get it, though I guess I should get to work on those cartoons to explain it to you.

            If you want to use PFF’s grades to measure how good Denver’s 2013 offense was, then the fact that the 2015 Denver defense’s grade of 274.8 absolutely destroys the 2013 Seattle defense’s grade of 220.3 pretty much ends the discussion. Denver’s D is better, and it’s not particularly close.

            If you want to rely on FO’s DVOA, then Denver’s offense isn’t the “greatest ever”. Just browsing through,
            Denver 2013 offensive DVOA: +33.5%
            Green Bay 2011 offensive DVOA: +33.8%
            New England 2010 offensive DVOA: +42.2%
            New England 2007 offensive DVOA: +43.5%
            Kansas City 2002 offensive DVOA: +35.4%
            Denver 1998 offensive DOVA: +34.5%

            The 2013 Denver offense was very good, but not the greatest of all time, or even the greatest Denver offense of the FO era.

          • eYeDEF

            I’m talking about what happens when you take those figures and account for how good each team was in the regular season.

            WAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA! The fact that you are so deluded that you can’t even argue straight is really cracking me up. So let me repeat for you for the upteetnth time what I’ve said since my very first post and where PFF agrees. You cannot account for the massive gap in superiority of the Broncos offense to the Panthers offense So now you try and trot out that regular season BS again when you already argued about the regular season being a push. I’m not talking about the regular season you dumb little boy. I’m talking about the Super Bowl when each team had arguably their best defensive performance Your circular reasoning trying to make it about the regular season, well duh. If you’re going to try and dilute the results of the Super Bowl by factoring regular season stats into it, of course it’s not going to look as impressive you dumb fuck. So don’t try and pretend you’ve accounted for the disparity when all you’re doing is trying to pull a lets-lie-with-stats parlor trick to skew the numbers to look less impressive. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, no one would understand your convoluted reasoning except you because you are a deluded homer and your logic is irrefutably broken. Beating the ’13 Broncos offense is more impressive than beating the ’15 Panthers and their offenses weren’t even close. This is an irrefutable fact. Nor did I ever claim FO said they were the best offense of all time, I said FO notes the massive disparity between their offensive production and they use for more analysis than simply points per drive. Nor does PFF simply add up player grades to determine their conclusions about Denver’s offense, that you would think they would is just you being foolish. They have a whole range of sig stats that they use and it’s a judgement call, based on their valid opinions on the subject.

            The only thing you did you with your numbers to account for the disparity is the 0.92 points per drive minimization effort that you made, and like I already pointed out, your efforts were facile in context.

          • anon76returns

            Still digging up I see.
            “Your circular reasoning trying to make it about the regular season, well duh.”
            Yes. Circular reasoning. It is a terrible thing to behold.
            “I’m not talking about the regular season you dumb little boy.”
            Naturally.
            “I’m talking about the Super Bowl when each team had arguably their best defensive performance and Seahawks dominated an inarguably far superior offense.”
            Of course you are. And what made the Broncos offense “inarguably far superior”? Probably not their regular season performance, as that would be embarrassing for you.

            “The only thing you did with your numbers to account for the disparity is the 0.92 points per drive minimization effort that you made, and like I already pointed out, your efforts were facile in context.”
            Nope. I’ve explained it very carefully the previous 3 posts. It’ not about points/drive. It’s about points per drive NORMALIZED BY EXPECTED POINTS PER DRIVE, which takes into account the relative strength of the opposing offense. I gotta admit, I lied about making drawings to explain this. I was sure you’d have figured it out by now.

          • eYeDEF

            lolol. Again, it’s amazing to witness how deep you are in your denial that in your brain YOUR circular reasoning can be perceived as anything but. So let’s look at your words here:

            It’s about points per drive NORMALIZED BY EXPECTED POINTS PER DRIVE, which takes into account the relative strength of the opposing offense.

            And how exactly did you normalize by expected points per drive you circular thinking tool? Again, by only accounting to the disparity of the offenses by your minimized 0.92 difference in regular season points per drive. Again, you should have read my first post regarding this instead of veering off into an irrelevant tangent about it not being about 0.92 when it was.

            I’ve been saying all along that your entire basis of measurement is flawed by trying to conveniently summarize the difference in their offenses by that 0.92 to determine expected points per drive. I actually expected YOU to have figured this out by now. But you keep returning to your pet points per drive project like it somehow has relevancy when I already discredited your whole charade as hopelessly insufficient to capturing the disparity.

            But since you’re smoking crack, you keep returning to your circular reasoning again, and again, and again.

            It’s actually been pretty hilarious to watch as you somehow think I don’t get it. No, actually, you’re the one with your head up your ass. You need to figure out a way to pull it out.

          • anon76returns

            ??
            I don’t know where your difference of 0.92 points per drive stat is coming from. In the 2015 regular season the Panthers averaged 2.57 points per drive. In the 2013 regular season the Broncos averaged 2.98 points per drive. That’s a difference of 0.41 points per drive. Please sober up and tell me where your numbers are coming from.
            While you’re at it, you can try and provide something of worth showing how the Seahawks 2013 defense was superior to the 2015 Broncos defense in some, meaningful, quantitative manner. So far all you’ve done is insist that the Broncos’ 2013 offense was so historically good (walked back from “greatest of all times”, I might add) that they couldn’t be compared to Carolina’s 2015 offense, which is simply a cop out.

          • eYeDEF

            Holy shit! You’re still having problems figuring this out? LOLOLOL! You gave me THESE FIGURES YOURSELF! 0.727 – 0.635 = 0.92. Damn, do I need to hold your hand and walk you through everything?

            If I’m still unclear, I’ll give you this story problem to think about. Your normalization effort demonstrates how well the defense played in the SB against its opponent offense relative to how well that offense played in the regular season. How does your effort illustrate and account for the disparity between the ’13 Broncos and ’15 Panthers offense? In other words, how does your methodology mathematically address my point that I’ve repeatedly asked you to address between the disparity in the offenses? You tell me if such a figure exists in your equation.

            If you want to think of things in points per drive, we could just circumvent all that and look at defensive points per drive of Denver (1.41) and Seattle (1.22). Oh, but you lose there too. I see. I guess in your world that’s just not “meaningful”.

            Tell you what, go to google and search for “defensive DVOA” and learn all about how they determine the metric. You can keep trying to deny that every metric under the sun showing the massive gap in disparity between the two offenses is not “meaningful”, but like I keep pointing out, doth protest too much. No one except your brethren homer goggle wearers is buying it.

          • anon76returns

            I thought I suggested you sober up before replying? Would save everyone involved so much typing.
            “Again, by only accounting to the disparity of the offenses by your minimized 0.92 difference in regular season points per drive.”
            “You gave me THESE FIGURES YOURSELF! 0.727 – 0.635 = 0.92.”
            The figures I “gave you myself” were from the super bowl. Your earlier incoherent ramblings were about regular season points per drive. You can see where a sober person would have trouble following your “logic”.
            Normalizing points per drive allowed to % of opponents scoring allowed inherently accounts for the disparities in offenses. It’s what applied mathematicians do when they go to dimensionless quantities to make comparisons. Holding a really good offense to 20% of its normal scoring output (e.g. holding a team that averages 100 points/game to “only” 20 points) is no easier or harder than holding a really bad offense to 20% of its normal scoring (e.g. holding a team that averages 10 points/game to 2 points).

            If you want to just talk about the points allowed/drive by the respective defenses on the season, then it is significant that Seattle allowed less/drive in 2013 than Denver did in 2015. But in order to even look at that, you’d have to abandon your mantra that “only the SB performance matters”.
            And of course, as soon as we start looking at that statistic, we see that the Seahawks benefitted from fantastic starting defensive field position (25.85 yard line, 6th best in the league in 2013) while the Broncos had terrible starting field position (29.49 yard line, 4th worst in the league in 2013). The Seahawks advantage in points per drive works out to ~41 points over the 195 defensive drives the Broncos had in 2015. But the difference in starting field position works out to about 710 yards over the course of the season. That means that the Broncos were having to overcome some very poor initial field position where their opponents started out in FG range. The best you can say is that the Seahawks’ defense did better in more favorable conditions. I suspect that if you did regression analysis between starting field position and points allowed per drive, you’d find that the 2015 Broncos were more impressive relative to average than the 2013 Seahawks were. But that is a rather subtle point to consider for someone who so recently insisted that the 2013 Broncos’ offense was the greatest ever, in spite of the fact that they really weren’t the greatest by any measure other than points scored per game.

          • eYeDEF

            The irony meter in you has now officially come full circle:

            The figures I “gave you myself” were from the super bowl. Your earlier incoherent ramblings were about regular season points per drive. You can see where a sober person would have trouble following your “logic”.

            Gee, are you really accusing ME of incoherent ramblings about regular season points per drive? You really should check yourself. You are the one that introduced the aspect of regular season normalization to form the basis of your false equivalency. The weed has affected your brain. FYI: I’ve always been focused on the Super Bowl.

            If you want to just talk about the points allowed/drive by the respective defenses on the season, then it is significant that Seattle allowed less/drive in 2013 than Denver did in 2015. But in order to even look at that, you’d have to abandon your mantra that “only the SB performance matters”.

            Actually I brought it up to underscore the habitual dishonesty of your positions, not mine, by your trying to argue using a PPD metric based on normalization of opponent offenses instead of just easily circumventing all that by looking at defensive PPD because it doesn’t suit your argument. Just like your dishonesty right now claiming my position is that only SB performance matters. Well obviously the REASON SB performance matters is because of the disparity of the two offenses they played against, which they both crushed, but in order to evaluate that disparity we must necessarily look at how those offenses played throughout the regular season. This goes without saying. When I said regular season shouldn’t be looked at it was based on both their regular seasons being a wash as you had argued, even though I was being generous in even conceding that when you consider Seahawk defensive PPD was significantly better. Obviously I made no mention about dismissing the opponent’s regular season or else there would be no way to evaluate strength of opponent. Your fictional projection of what I said is simply ridiculous and reeks of desperation. But then again, that’s always been your MO. To set up a series of strawmen and hope to get the last word out of attrition. But it wouldn’t matter, it doesn’t make you any less wrong.

            And of course, as soon as we start looking at that statistic, we see that the Seahawks benefitted from fantastic starting defensive field position blah blah blah

            Yeah there’s no disputing that the 2013 Seahawks were a superior team overall to the 2015 Broncos. You won’t get any argument from me there. Your arguments in support of that conclusion here are overwhelming and undeniable.

            But that’s not what we were talking about. And this is where your BS rears its ugly head again. I didn’t see you bring up any of these arguments when championing your self serving metric of measuring opponent offensive points per drive normalized over the regular as reason to dismiss the stat altogether like you’re doing with defensive points per per drive when the results revealed an insignificant difference between them. You’re the ultimate cherry picker.

            But I digress. Because ultimately this whole line of evaluation you’ve laid down which you try to portray as the final word is transparently self serving and marginalized by the facts; because we’re not talking about dimensionless quantities. Sorry dude but physical quantities have dimensions. You’re trying to force theoretical mathematics upon empirical results, rendering your whole pursuit a misguided exercise in pure folly. I give you an A for the valiant attempt to mislead and obfuscate though. It was truly herculean. But as I think was said by a wise man who came up with the theory that forms the basis of modern physics, (paraphrasing) conclusions arrived at by pure logic (or theoretical math, take your pick) can tell us nothing about the real world. And in your case, your analysis suffers from superficiality and your conclusions from flawed methodology. That’s why when multiple dimensions of opponent SB offense are looked at more comprehensively like FO does with offensive DVOA it’s not even close. And it just simply doesn’t pass the smell test when comparing their respective lineups, your weak analysis notwithstanding.

            But that is a rather subtle point to consider for someone who so recently insisted that the 2013 Broncos’ offense was the greatest ever, in spite of the fact that they really weren’t the greatest by any measure other than points scored per game.

            Doesn’t matter because you are missing the larger point that I wasn’t wrong, because I wasn’t. In many people’s minds it was the greatest offense of all time and I was merely aping what the author said in the article above. Even if it’s not universal based on which metric you look at, it’s not far from the truth. The same can’t be said of the Panthers offense that isn’t even in the ballpark. Splitting hairs on the moniker is your deliberate attempt to obfuscate and distract as your MO has made very clear.

          • TheTruth

            Holding the #1 offense in 2015 to 10 points is hard, its not like doing it in the 70s or 85 or the early 2000s, its a different league and the Broncos played elite QBs half the year and did well except for the game without both starting safeties and the back up FS getting his leg broke on a flagrant hit

          • eYeDEF

            So just think how much harder holding #1 offense of All Time is to 8 points.

            That’s not the #1 offense in just one lousy season. We’re talking the best offense of every season ever played, and holding that offense to 8 points. So yeah, no matter how impressive Broncos defense was, Seahawks D was more impressive by virtue of the offense they smashed to bits.

          • TheTruth

            Wow you are one ignorant, plain fact ignoring, idiotic man. Anyone who can read this comment WILL understand that winning isnt as hard with a pass rush (which both 13 hawks and 15 broncos had) but when you add in the fact that they did it against a couple of backups, it makes it less impressive. Yes the Broncos O was statistically the best all of time, but that Offense wouldve been destroyed by the 15 Broncos as well, if yoy dont agree with me when i say “pass rush can disrupt ANY offense” than youre ignorant plain and simple. Use your head on this next point im about to make. The two tackles carolina had, gave up no sacks and 2 total pressures throughtout the playoffs (vs the hawks, and cardinals which have great D Ends) imagine if they wouldve played with out their best tackle, and moved over the weaker one to block the blinside, while putting in a backups backup, to cover the better rusher, they wouldve lose to both hawks and cards. The Panthers Offense wasnt as good in the pass, but it hadnt been held to under 100 yards rushing in 31 games (2 years) and one can argue having the best run game since the late 70s, is harder than stopping the best pass game. The line was aproblem all year in 2013 but they hadnt faced the #1 defense, i dont thibk they even played a top 5 defense that year. Both the 13 broncos and hawks were slightly overrated. And the 13 hawks wouldnt “destroy” the 15 broncos. Use your head one more time, you need to understand football for this one. A good run game, is almost as important as a good defense. Running the ball successfully opens up the pass for even an average QB, it also takes time off the clock, and rests the defense, another big plus to having a good (hawks had the best) run game is lack of risk, Peyton threw 17 picks in 9.5 games! The year before he had 30 Tds, and 9 picks through week 10 when he got hurt. The hawks had a conservative, pass game, that was open because of the threat on the ground from russ and lynch. If we wouldve had an AVERAGE run game the hawks wouldve had to respect that, but its easier to stop the pass when you know that knowshon moreno couldnt run squat all year even with the opposing defense bringing out 6 db’s.

          • eYeDEF

            Why do I have to imagine anything? We’re not playing fantasy football here. I’m going by results. Your starting tackle hadn’t played the ENTIRE SEASON and it was STILL the best offense of all time, so you’re being ridiculous even bringing it up. It’s a non-point. Mike Remmers is one of the worst starting tackles in the league. This is a fact. Look up his PFF pass pro score. OTOH, Michael Oher was one of the worst starting run blocking tackles in the league. Look it up. You can argue about imagining things that there’d be no way of knowing, but you’re still dealing in fantasy land whereas I’m dealing with hard facts. You need to look in the mirror before accusing anyone of ignoring facts boy. My point stands.

          • TheTruth

            Also it’s not the #1 offense of some “lousy” season, youre obviously bias and exaggerating, no exaggeration is needed when you have the truth. Every year it gets harder to stop the pass.

          • eYeDEF

            I’m not exaggerating at all. The Broncos offense that season had a 33.5 DVOA compared to the Panthers 9.9 offensive DVOA per football outsiders. That’s not just a little better. The Broncos offense BLEW AWAY the Panthers offense in every sense of the word. That’s multiple STANDARD DEVIATIONS better.

            So yes, it was a lousy offensive season compared to the Broncos greatest of all time that was better than any other offense that ever played in the Super Bowl era. It’s ridiculous you’re even trying to compare them when Newton had starting receiving options of Ted Ginn Jr, Jerricho Cotchery, and Corey Brown. The Broncos had DT, Eric Decker, and Welker. You’re being ridiculous thinking those groups even belong in the same sentence. And like I said, Cam had one of the worst starting tackles in the league in pass pro in Mike Remmers. Look it up. Plus Broncos had better running back that year in Knowshon Moreno even though he’s been garbage ever since, he rushed for over 1000 yards and his 4.3 yards per attempt was better than Stewart’s 989 yards and 4.1 Y/A.

            No contest. My point stands.

          • TheTruth

            Youre so dumb, moreno is definitely not better than stewart, the only reason he was on the broncos for 5 years through 2 acl tears is because he was a 1st rd BUST! Also you fail to realize what ive been saying this whole time. When you have a great pass rush you dont need even an average defense to beat a great offense. Like i said, the pats were a better offense, they had a guy like moss who was faster bigger and jumped higher than anyone, with insane hands, brady was at his best, giants had no one on their defense that would start on any top 5 defense from this year, outside of strahan and tuck/piere paul, how did they beat Tom twice with both those great offenses (one of which was just as good as the 13 broncos)? Pass rush. Im not saying the hawks D wasnt great, but they had a pass rush that was great, and going up against the worst tackle to ever start in SB history. Peyton didnt play any teams that had good pass rushes, let alone great, and no one had two weeks (3 if you count the bye since they probably knew Brobcos were going).

          • eYeDEF

            You’re so dumb, look at the numbers that year. Moreno had a good year and had 4.3 yards per attempt. His career is not better than Stewart’s, but that’s not what we’re talking about you stupid little boy. I was talking about his ’13 season compared to Stewart this year. Pay attention. I love how you keep bringing up Peyton missing his starting tackle when Mike Remmers is the worst starting tackle in the league this past year. That invalidates your point. Hawks went up against a sub-tackle, but so did Broncos. I can play that game too.

          • TheTruth

            How dont you understand what im saying? A rusher who can get to the QB before hes done with his drop back (even in shotgun) can ruin a whole game. That means it doesnt take much for a defense to keep people covered when the QB is getting hit before he finds his target. The Broncos had no pass protection. How can you possibly think what they did was the most impressive thing in football? IF THE PANTHERS HAD SOME CHUMP BACKUP blocking VON who was the MVP, then Von couldve gone for probably 5 sacks, and the Broncos couldve won by 21.

          • eYeDEF

            They were still the greatest offense of all time with “no pass protection”. You know why they had “no pass protection”? Because they faced a superior defense. That’s why. How can you not recognize this fact?

          • TheTruth

            You are obviously too much of a homer to realize this, but seahawks didnt beats the actual broncos team, they beat 9 backups. Pass rush is the most dangerous thing in football, id rather have a rusher who can get to the qb in under 2 seconds like Von (think of how fast that is) than a CB who can shut down a wr for 7 seconds because a CB cant lock down 4 targets for even 2 seconds let alone 7, someone will get open if the QB has all day(thats why russil is so good)but one great rusher (i.e. Miller, mack, houston, avril/bennet) can end a play before the qb decides where hes going. So, with that said, it doesnt take much when the rush is on like it was that 13 sb, which doesnt make the hawks defense less than great, but when its against a backup RT and a run blocking RT at the blindside, i have to take a little credit away, even without the rush, yes they couldve/wouldve held the *2nd best offense to less than 30, but not 8, and if the Broncos had their 3 best defenders playing, they couldve given their team at least 3 or 4 more drives, which, with Clady and Franklin couldve ended up in even more points. With pass protection, Peyton couldve gotten someone other than Thomas (who was burning Sherman all day, mostly due to the respect for the deep ball) a pass.

          • eYeDEF

            WAHAHAHAHAAHAH. Except no one but a Broncos homer would ever make that claim. If a NFL pundit said something so inaccurate, they’d be fired. The reason is because it’s not true. Like I said, if Browner were starting, the Seahawks would have shut the Broncos out.

          • TheTruth

            if browser wouldve played he wouldve been burnt by Thomas worse than he burnt sherman all game, mightve even had two tds bye

          • eYeDEF

            Thomas never burned Sherman, it’s never happened. Not in the Super Bowl that year when the Broncos could barely even get on the board, nor the following year when they met in the regular season. So once again, you’re pushing fiction based on your flights of fantasy. Browner was coming off a pro bowl year in 2012 and was an excellent cornerback. You’re confused by what you see now when he’s well past his prime.

          • TheTruth

            now you’re bringing up money in a football debate? what a fuckin homer, you keep saying I’m ignoring facts when i tell you that PFF said NEITHER of their Tackles allowed a sack or pressure for that matter, throughout the playoffs, and Thomas set a fuckinew record for sb receptions, and had 108 yards with a TD ON SHERMAN you idiot, ivery met morons on here but… since you think you’re so rich check your fuckin subscription when youre done watching your porn subscription

          • eYeDEF

            Money in football? You need to get your eyes checked out too. You’re hallucinating. Who cares if they didn’t allow a sack or pressure in the playoffs? Remmers was the worst starting tackle in pass pro for a reason, because he’s not consistently good. He sucks. A good two games doesn’t mean he’s going to be primed to stop Von Miller. Can you really be that dumb?

          • TheTruth

            ya, you brought up money, you said if I wasn’t so poor i could pay for a dumbass puff subscription ahaha

          • eYeDEF

            Because you were resorting to making up BS. That’s what happens when you can’t afford to access facts.

          • TheTruth

            what am I making up?

          • eYeDEF

            Your fantasy sequence.

          • TheTruth

            youre so dumb. Giants had horrible corner backs going up against MOSS, WELKER, GRONK, HERNANDEZ, AND BRADY in his prime and who stopped them? Eli? their corners? that’s right their pass rush, twice, Took out #1 Os, one of which was the best ever, you think if they had a horrible pass rush and ONE deoin, or sherman, that they would win? no because now brady has more than 2 seconds to throw and only one of his options are shitdown, if you have von and ware, or tuck and jpp and strahan, you dont need a sacondary,

          • eYeDEF

            Not sure what your point is then. The Seahawks pass rush destroyed the Broncos and according to you it’s all about pass rush. So you should be lauding the Seahawks for a job well done. Their pass rush crushed the Broncos. Do try and keep up. Game Over.

          • TheTruth

            yes their pass rush destroyed backups, their coverage couldve been cut up with an extra second, Broncos always had lock down coverage. look at who the hawks played, panthers at home is an easy game the 2012 broncos got 7 sacks and dominated the Panthers in car, 9ners at home is easy, 9ners would be easily stopped by this Broncos O the same way this panthers O was, jags at home? @texans? lol, @ Colts maybe their hardest game, home vs titans? @ Cardinals, @rams, home vs bucs? @Falcons is a tough game but we almost beat them in 2012 with 3 manning picks in the first 3 drives, home vs vikings easy win in 2013, saints @ home is an easy win for a great D especially if you have a top 5 O like the hawks, @9ners @giants? home vs cards, then home vs rams, none of those Os have 9ners were the best team they played but we’re maybe the easiest to stop for a great D like sea or den because kaep like cam are overrated and with a goon run D your pass coverage should be Dominant, saints are easy to stop if you have one great corner for their #1 reciever all you have to do is focus your lbs and safeties on graham

          • eYeDEF

            First of all you’re talking nonsense because there are no easy wins in the NFL. All games are hard, especially on the road.
            You can’t go just by how well your team played a team to have any true measure of how good they are. All teams matchup with teams differently. Teams that might have been harder for you to beat could have been easier for us to beat and vice versa because of different matchups. Football is all about individual matchups. The niners matchup well against the hawks, the teams were practically mirror images of each other that year. And you’re forgetting we had to play them 3 fucking times. It’s hard playing the same team 3 times in a season as good as the niners were that year. Houston was a tough road win because that was early before Matt Schaub totally imploded and he’d just gone to the pro bowl the previous year. You’re also forgetting Arizona was strong that year with a healthy Carson Palmer and was the only 10-6 team to barely miss the playoffs and really shouldn’t in a fair world. We had to play them twice because they were in our division. That’s why NFC West was considered the premier powerhouse division in the league. The same cannot be said for the AFC West. Chiefs are not as good as the Niners. Raiders are up and coming but they’re no 2013 Cardinals either. San Diego blows. So no, not buying the strength of schedule argument. The Seahawks played better teams.

            And you’re high saying the ‘coverage could have been cut up’ when Peyton cut up nothing even when he had time. 2013 was the year the Legion of Boom made its name because there has not been a secondary as strong statistically before or since. The CB depth was so deep we had to cut perennial pro bowler Antoine Winfield in training camp after he took a paycut to play with us because he wanted to win a championship. No one cut up the secondary that year. Never happened.

          • TheTruth

            youfail to realize the hawks had the 2nd best RB in the game, imagine our O if they had 3 rusher like panthers or hawks did? or a qb that was top 3 in rushing tds and yards, panthers got 500 more rushing yards than us and had the best average in the league, jg with a top 3 O helps your D tremendously, and helps keep plays unused, Peyton threw more ints in 10 games than Wilson and Newton in 13 and 15 combined

          • eYeDEF

            Not really sure what you’re talking about when you have CJ Anderson. He’s no Lynch but he’s still very very good, I’d even say top 5 back. It’s no one’s fault but your coaches for not using him like one.

          • TheTruth

            owen daniels, emmanuel sanders, and Thomas in his prime now, would not be scared of the 2013 hawks, and our Run O was better than the 13 broncos, and relied on our Run game and wouldn’t have throw enough to give them 3 or 4 picks,it would’ve been a much closer game, no 2 points and the ball right off the bat, no jThomas letting the fly over him (he was soft all year) no decker (who is soft for his size) nd Thomas broke records and still could, Anderson is better than moreno when healthy, if the Broncos decided to run this year’s O vs the hawks we wouldve lost maybe 21 to 10 but this year’s broncos is much better, they held the steelers pats and panthers to 1 passing td

          • eYeDEF

            Oh they’d be terrified seeing how you don’t have a QB to get them the ball. Dude you really need to put the crack pipe down. And Owen Daniels? LOLOLOLOL! Your idea of a tight end that terrifies anyone is OWEN FUCKING DANIELS? OMG, please fucking stop you’re killing me with your stupidity. That crack habit is really melting your brain.

          • TheTruth

            Like i said, mr simpson, check the hawks schedule, and locations, they were overrated, but they walked into a perfect game, a trap game where the best Offense ever (only due to the era they play in) was down about 8 starters at key positions. To truly see who was the best, you would have toimagine it, i doubt the hawks of 13 could beat this 15 Broncos, id take the Broncos team that was actually PLAYING in the super bowl, over the Roster that was WATCHING their team lose. Lynch was held to 60 yards in the SB, without the aforementioned starters on D, with 2 top 5 run defenders among them. Add in the fact that Browner would get burnt by sanders all day, plus having a run game vs a team that can stop the pass is essential, where the 13 broncos were close to last. The 15 Broncos could easily stop their run game by loading the box and leaving Harris and Roby and Talib on islands, 15 Broncos>13 Broncos>13 hawks

          • eYeDEF

            WAHAHAHAH! I just took your advice and looked up Strength of Schedule in 2013 and the Broncos had the EASIEST strength of schedule at 32 while the Hawks are at 19:

            http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2014/1/26/5343676/saints-year-in-review-nfl-2013-strength-of-schedule-seahawks-broncos

            You’re just making yourself look more ridiculous now. Trap game my ass. How did missing your best tackle for the year turn into “missing 8 starters”? Now you’re just making stuff up because you’re getting desperate. Like I said, I can cite all the injuries the Seahawks had too. The Seahawks of ’13 would ANNIHILATE the Broncos of ’15 because you didn’t have a QB and hawks beat the best offense of all time like a drum.

            It wouldn’t even be close.

          • TheTruth

            Also, no, why would i make up a lie? You think this argument matters so much that i would lie ahaha. Von tore his acl week 16, Harris tore his week 18, Wolfe got hurt in the middle of the year, all of which were #1 in the league this year, the all pro LT went down in week 2, the starting, backup, and backups backup (every C on the roster) was put on IR. They also played with their most experienced CB (Champ) playing through plantar fa. And their best run sropping DTackle was out. Also the starting FS was on IR. Maybe you dont understand momentum but being able to get off the field and giving your O another shot helps your momentum a lot more than being stomped on. The hawks were all picked by the experts, and vegas chose Broncos (i too thought too much of the O).

          • eYeDEF

            Because it doesn’t matter. The Panthers didn’t have Kelvin Benjamin or the Broncos might have lost. Does it matter? No it doesn’t. No one remembers that crap. The hawks didn’t have Brandon Browner in the Super Bowl, they lost him because he was sitting out a drug suspension. Maxwell was starting for the first time in the playoffs because of it. Browner had been playing at a pro bowl level and made the pro bowl the previous year. If he were playing they could have shut out the Broncos. See how that works? I can play your idiotic injury hypothetical game too, but it doesn’t matter and there’s no way of knowing what the difference would have been.

          • TheTruth

            You are such a homer if you dont think itll be close. The whole offense changed from 2013, the pass plays that turned in 14 points for the hawks wouldnt have been called by Kubiak. Julius thomas (who was even offered a contract) let a vall fly over him to a seahawks, the RT let a rusher hit Peytons arm twice that resulted in interceptions, and Ramirez gave them the ball with two points and momentum. If you wouldve put average CBs and LBs on the field vs the 13 broncos, but with the same rushers, the Broncos wouldve most likely lost by at least a TD, and im a Broncos fan, think about it, imagine if Peyton couldve had another second to break the defense down. All that talk about Brady getting the ball out in 2 seconds? With the most unguardable TE ever (gronk) and two quick shift recievers? The pass rush took that game over just like TBs SBs vs the giants. Notice both times the giants had nooooooo one at Cornerback, going up against Moss?! Welker? Somehow they held pats to 13?? The best passing offense ever? (In my opinion at least) and a team with no secondary somehow beat Tom at his very best with his best supporting cast? Listen to me when i say pass rush is key.anyone here will agree. Did the hawks beat 3 of the 5 best offenses in one single playoff run? No. Broncos did. The 13 broncos TEAM as a whole wasnt as good as this 15 Broncos. Miller, Wolfe, and Harris are the best or very near the best at their positions today, and they werent as developed two years ago. The 13 broncos were not only less experienced, skilled, or as strong, but the players that actually PLAYED in the SB? No where near the team the Broncos had PLAYING in this years SB. Imagine the SB replayed vs panthers without Miller? That changes the whole outcome… period. No arguing that, you literally have to be joking, or a dumbass to think the MVP wouldnt have changed the outcome. What if they didnt have a shutdown corner allowing Ward to stay in the box? Without Miller you really need to load the box. But what if Miller, Harris (who is the best run support corner in the nfl bar none) and Ward were out? That whole right side wouldve been abused on the ground by Carolina, give Talib a foot injury, and take out the starting NT, plus whichever ILB you think is the best. The Panthers wouldve beat us like the hawks did in 13. Dont forget the panthers had the best O, and a top 5 D, Broncos had the best O, and a bottom 5 D, huge difference.

          • eYeDEF

            Yeah and you know why the greatest offense of all time played so poorly that Julius Thomas had a pass fly over him? Because he was so intimidated about getting hit that he let it sail. That’s what the Greatest Defense of All Time does, it lives up to its name by intimidating opponents so much with their bone crushing hits to get them off their game. That’s football. The RT let a rusher hit Peyton’s arm because the Greatest Defense of All Time created that pressure and blew by the RT. That’s why they’re known as the Greatest Defense of All Time. Peyton didn’t have another second because the Greatest Defense of All Time saw to it that he didn’t. It’s hilarious because all the excuses you’re making for the Broncos offense just PROVES HOW GREAT THE DEFENSE WAS. You’re making my point for me, so of course my point still stands untouched.

          • TheTruth

            Hawks played inferior opponents compared to the Broncos this year, so we can say Broncos played much better offenses, and more often. Broncos also had to play superior competition in the ‘offs, which they dominated, another point for the Broncos. Hawks were supported by the best run game which helped keep their D from starting in their own endzone 15 times like the Broncos D had to, the hawks also didnt give the other team 6 pick 6s. So Broncos not only played harder teams, more often, but the offense was also leaving them in much harder positions, and more often. One thing i do take away from the Broncos is that they HAD to D up all game, all year, having a good-grear O takes a lot of stress of your team. The Broncos were also missing 2.5 (the 3rd string was on a broken tibia) safeties vs the best passing O in the league, with the best weapons in the league besides Pats (which coincidentally, Broncos beat twice). Another point for the Broncos. The Broncos played a defense much harder to play, with minimum zone play, which means no jogging to one spot every play like the hawks do, Broncos ran and chased every skill player all year. Broncos had a tougher task in 15 than hawks in 13, and both constantly domianted. The difference is the Broncos in 15 had harder competition, playing just as dominant as the 13 hawks did. Broncos>hawks everyone knows this.

          • eYeDEF

            Doesn’t matter, because the Hawks still created more turnovers than the Broncos. The most important differences is that Seattle held seven of their opponents under 10 points, while the 2015
            Broncos pulled off that feat just once. They also held seven opponents
            under 250 total yards, while the Broncos only did that three times.

            That is just raw superiority in every facet of the word. The hawks beat the greatest offense of all time while broncos only beat the panthers. If hawks had broncos SoS, there’s every reason to think they would have played those offenses better than the Broncos did because hawks had the far superior defense. This is just a fact.

          • TheTruth

            the Broncos weren’t the best, they were one dimensional, the best ever was the rams in 99, then pats with gronk hernandez Welker and Moss with brady in his PRIME, Peyton had no arm, and couldn’t feel his fingers, and his line was bottom 10 AGAIN, and they played weak defenses, the hawks had no injuries and they got all those stats because of who they olayed, check your schedule before calling them the best, look at who they played, and who the Broncos played

          • eYeDEF

            Again, the NFC West was universally considered the best division in the league in 2013. The Seahawks had a much tougher schedule. Both niners and cards we had to play twice and each was considered a top 5 team that year, especially for cards after Palmer returned from injury. Hawks played great defenses that year.

          • TheTruth

            9ners were not top 5. stop, they were top 10 maybe… and as good as they were the Broncos D wouldve stifled kaep the same way cam was, bold in? Crabtree? lol vernon would be nothing to cover for marshall or trevathan who were top 10 in coverage, von wouldve spied like he did, it would be easy, and you guys barely beat em, cards were not top 5 either you are SUCH A HOMER, look at your schedule without bias and tell me those were great offenses, they didnt play the steelers, didnt play the pats, didnt play the packers(which we held to 77 pass yards) look at who they played, and who was on their team, and STOP IGNORING THE FACT THAT HAVING A TOP 5 O HELPS THE DEFENSE TREMENDOUSLY, and having a BOTTOM 10 offense, and finishing last in turnover margin, due to Manning 17 picks in 10 games and osweiler picks

          • eYeDEF

            You’re high. They had barely lost the Super Bowl the previous year remember? Not like Denver’s deconstruction by the Hawks. They were easily a top 5 team. That’s why we met them in the NFC Championship. Conference title games involve the top 4 teams remember? All you have to do is look at the stats that year which overwhelming proves how dominant SF was, but you don’t because you’re lazy and prefer to believe fantasy over reality.

          • TheTruth

            what if the 15 Broncos had russel instead of manning,Marshawn lynch, instead of Anderson and hillman (5 carries 0 yards) and their top 10 oline instead of the bottom 10 O line, Broncos wouldve SMOKED cam and cam didn’t have his recievers playing scared, or letting balls fly into the Broncos hands. if the Broncos could move the rock on the ground like the hawks with lynch and russel they wouldve put up at least 14 pts on O, and wouldve made allowed less points, and if Von and Wolfe were playing lunch wouldve had maybe 15 carries for 15 yards instead of 15 for 39, and he wouldn’t have been near the goal line to score, both Baldwin and Kearse got 60+ yards and a td, harris and a healthy Bailey, or even a roby from 15 Broncos wouldve held them to under 40 with no TDs, they got 21 points on a D that was missing their 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th best players, and clady wouldve at least changed up one of those pick sixes,maybe two, thats a 28 point swing, even if that team, a fully healthy team like the hawks were, wouldve beat that hawks team, i didnt expect the loss because I wasn’t thinking about how great the rush was, and how weak our Line was, you couldn’t notice with Manning getting the ball off so quick, and tiring Ds up with so many passes and pass rushes, i didnt think we needed von or wolfe or harris or vickerson and Moore because I figured Manning was the only reason we were winning when von was still a top 5 LB, and Harris was a top 5 CB, wolfe was already top 20

          • eYeDEF

            I’ve already explained to you that the Hawks were not a ‘fully healthy’ team either. You keep forgetting because you’re a homer too bent on only seeing your team as victimized by injuries. Your speculation is based on your fantasies, not reality. That’s my point, that’s why you’re being ridiculous speculating what Denver could have done with a better offense. It’s irrelevant.

          • eYeDEF

            Sorry but that argument doesn’t fly either. Strength of Schedule only reflects how good teams were in relation to other teams THAT YEAR. It says nothing about comparison of teams in different years. So you have no way of saying they played much better teams based on strength of schedule in the playoffs because there’s no point of valid comparison in different years. SoS doesn’t work that way.

          • TheTruth

            In a nutshell, the better defense is the one that had the least opposition, such as someone actually standing in front of the hawks’ rusher, or who knows, maybe even block them. The Broncos rush went up vs the best pass proctecting line in the playoffs, with the best overall run game over the last couple of years. And a TE who is overall much better than Thomas(mostly because of blocking). The hawks faced Thomas who very young, and decker who was young and very weak (mentally) and J Thomas, who is too driven (hed rather get money in jax, he said Manning yells too much) Sanders has taken hits the last two years that wouldve left decker out a few times. This offense was obviously less explosive but all season when it had to (at the end of games) it stepped up and scored, i.e. ravens, chiefs, browns, pats, raiders). The hawks defense had a very good, although not great offense that ran probably 70%of the time. Peyton had a bottom 5 run game that saw 5-6 men boxes more than half the time. If you put the 15 Peyton on the 13 hawks, you lose the 50-70 rushing yards a game on the ground from Russ, and your recievers wont be put on islands. You also have to overcome 17 picks in 9 games with 28 points spotted to the other team, plus starting in such bad field position. Broncos had a very horrible offense this year, hawks had a top 10 offense, AND they went played horrible teams all year, how can you think what they did all year is harder to do than what the Broncos did, they played 19 games, 17 of which were vs pro bowl QBs, 4 SB winners (a total of 6 games) and played Jamaal Charles and AP. The worst passing attacks they played were vs lions (go figure) and Vikings. They also played 6 top 10 Defenses 3 of which had top 10 offenses. Hawks hardest game was @saints… you obviously dont understand football if you think winning with russ and lynch is harder than winning with Peyton and Hillman/Anderson, with 3 starters from the line on IR and 2 back up centers). Also, in 2013 the offense was still good because they didnt play anyone with a rush that could take advantage of Clady and Franklins absence. They basically were gunning on offense to save themselves, Dumervil left, Von was suspended, Bailey was hurt, they had a nobody(duke ihenacho) at safety, and no run game. They were winning games by less than the hawks were. Hawks had the better team, on the field, than the Broncos. The Broncos were the better team that year but 4 of the 5 best players (offense or defense) were out. This year the 15 Broncos were less complete than the 13 hawks but the defense… was better. The question is which D was better, but its not just the end result, the offense also plays a huge rule (abouthalf?) And the Broncos had a much worse “supporting cast” as it would be said in basketball. Jordan might be looked at as the best ever being 6-0 in the finals, but he has the best defender ever, the best rebounding/defending PF ever, and the best coach. Brady might be seen as the best QB ever, but he knew every play every defense was running from taping them over 7 years. Hawks had a great O, Broncos had a horrible O, such great disparity and such similar results (over 19 games). Let me put it this way, the 15 Broncos defense couldve beat the 13 broncos worse. Von would destrog chris clark (if you even know who that is) and Harris wouldnt allow Thomas to break sb records on him. Truth is if the hawks wouldve been missing bennet, sherman, wagner, and their SB MVP, and their LT (leaving Von who knows who)the Broncos wouldve dropped 50+. Take the panthers’ Kuechly, Norman, Harper, luetilei, Short, and their Tackle who hadnt allowed any pressures all playoffs, out of the game, and even that Broncos offense couldve put up 28. Either way give the injuries the 13 broncos faced, to the 13 hawks, or the 15 panthers, and Broncos win both by 31+

          • eYeDEF

            tldr; Honestly it’s hard to take you seriously when after reading the first five or six sentences it’s clear your head is riddled with delusions you think are facts because you’re so blinded by your own homerism. Like here:

            The Broncos rush went up vs the best pass proctecting line in the playoffs, with the best overall run game over the last couple of years.

            Nope. The Panthers do not have a good pass protecting line when Remmers sucks. Period. Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Nor did they have the best run game over the last couple years. Where do you come up with such BS? Because it’s definitely not based in facts.

            And a TE who is overall much better than Thomas(mostly because of blocking).

            Sorry but Olsen is considered the WORST pass blocking tight end in the league and it’s not close. Another reason why the pass pro that you claim Carolina is so good at sucks dong. JT is a much better receiving threat.

            Peyton had a bottom 5 run game that saw 5-6 men boxes more than half the time

            Another delusional fantasy by you. Moreno rushed for over 1000 yards which was more than Stewart. He also had 4.3 yards per attempt, more than Stewart’s 4.1 Y/A. Broncos had a decent run game too, bottom five my ass.

            they went played horrible teams all year,

            Horrible teams my ass. Maybe you weren’t old enough to remember but the niners were a powerhouse team that year coming off their 2012 SB appearance, and the Cardinals had a healthy Carson Palmer all year. That’s why NFC West was considered the class of the league. They were considered the strongest division BY FAR and the hawks played each team twice. Denver was in the shittiest division in the league by comparison.

            Honestly, with so much your five points littered with inaccuracies and BS, I couldn’t get through the rest of your manuscript. Bottom line is that ’13 Broncos offense blew away Panthers ’15 offense. Everyone easily recognizes that but you. That’s why Seattle’s defense is superior and it’s not close.

          • TheTruth

            and before arguing and calling people delusional check your numbers, I’ve said it numerous times, neither of their Tackles let up a tackle, not vs the Cardinals and not vs the seahawks who weren’t much worse this year than 2013, you say they had no pass pro? but gave no 0 sacks? who’s lying? numbers or your delusion?

          • eYeDEF

            Like I said, you’re full of shit. Remmers was the worst starting tackle in the league at pass pro. He gave up plenty of sacks all year including in the playoffs. Get your facts straight you dumb liar.

          • TheTruth

            I cant believe how stupid you are i guess pff put up lies on their site? uhh?

          • TheTruth

            you’re full of shit lol

          • eYeDEF

            You’re the most full of shit homer of all time. lol.

          • TheTruth
          • eYeDEF

            Like I said, so was your replacement.

          • TheTruth

            sO funny how stubborn and idiotic Homer’s are smh. rip.

          • eYeDEF

            Coming from a homer trying to argue that the basis of his team being better is a tackle that wasn’t on his team all year that should have played if he hadn’t gotten injured. You know how weak your argument is? It’s just absurd. Injuries are part of the game and your boy got injured.

            What do you think any Patriot fan would say if I tried to point out that the Seahawks were the true winners of the Super Bowl in 2014 because we lost Cliff Avril for the 2nd half, and that completely affected our pass rush (which is totally true, we couldn’t pressure Brady and he took advantage in the 4th quarter) so we’re the true winners. They would laugh in my face and point to their ring and they’d be right because injuries are part of the game. Avril couldn’t stay healthy enough to be on the field. You’re clearly the homer here because you can’t handle the reality of injuries.

          • TheTruth

            losing avril for a half isn’t like losing von the whole game, and Harris who was 1st in slot yards and 4th in total yards, plus wolfe, plus moore, vickerson, Woodyard. and the Broncos never played a great pass rush, if they wouldve had their players healthy on D alone they wouldve made stops and gotten the ball back, look at how many times Peyton had the ball. they were intimidating not the greatest. this broncos O couldve moved the ball better and taken care of the ball better solely due to Kubiak o

          • eYeDEF

            Losing Avril for a half absolutely was the difference when Tom Brady used the lack of pressure in the 4th quarter to rally from 10 points down when he couldn’t get anything going in the previous 2 quarters. And while we’re at it, Kam Chancellor was playing on a torn MCL the WHOLE GAME. If he’d been healthy he could have been his intimidating presence in the middle and laid bricks on Gronk and anyone else trying to catch passes over the middle. Because of Chancellor’s injury, we had to put slot CB Marcus Burley on the inactive list just to carry a backup safety in case he was too injured to play. Normally Maxwell plays the slot too but couldn’t that day because we had an injury to Tharold Simon in the playoffs that also could have been the difference if Maxwell could have covered the slot. That fucked everything up since Edelman ended up destroying us that game when we didn’t have a slot CB to cover him. So I could make up excuses all day long as to why we could have crushed the Patriots if not for injuries. But it doesn’t mean anything, at the end of the day we still lost. Just like you did.

          • TheTruth
          • eYeDEF

            What’s really hilarious is the entire basis of your argument is a tackle that wasn’t on your team all year. That means you can’t think of him as your tackle because his services weren’t available to you that year. You lose.

          • TheTruth

            Strength of schedule is based off record from the year before, so that was the strength of the team from 2012. Titans were horrible but came back and had a top 3 pass defense (with no pass rush so Manning threw 4 tds on them in 30 degree snowing weather) they played good teams all year.

          • eYeDEF

            Not the link that I gave you, which actually looked at the actual strength of schedule after the season post mortem. Who cares about projected strength of schedule from the year before? That crap doesn’t matter because it’s no reflection of how the season played out.

          • TheTruth

            One thing people dont think about is how hard it is to stop each offense. Any offense predicated on passing can be conpletely dismantled by one great pass rusher. The panthers Offense was powered by the best run game in the last 30 years, they had a great full back, a great blocking TE and a 6’5 running QB. The hawks only had to expose the backup RT (who graded out as a bottom 10 of 64 for the year), and also worry about decker and J Thomas, leaving sherman with Demaryius (which sherman lost over and over). The Broncos had to stop the best run game that can run triple options and with one of the best lines in the league. Von destroyed a tackle who hadnt allowed a pressure all playoffs.

          • eYeDEF

            You’re high. You Denver fans seem to have an out of control problem with weed where you’re prone to delusions. Weed is legal in Washington too but we can handle it. If it’s not working for us, we don’t smoke. You appear to be a poster boy for prohibition, you should consider cutting back. Claiming the Panthers run game was the best run game of the last 30 years reveals how completely brain damaged you are. When Stewart only had 989 4.1 y/a. Are you sure you live on this planet? Nor was Cam’s 600+ rushing yards a record for QB rushing this decade. Citing the strength or weaknesses of run blocking doesn’t matter unless it’s reflected in a productive run game, and Cam + Stewart was not even remotely the best running game of the last 30 years. Adrian Peterson alone has outdone those totals plenty of times. Last year Wilson + Lynch produced more than Cam + Stewart.

            Like I said, you should cut back on the weed use, it’s really messing with your perception of reality.

          • TheTruth

            both panthers tackles hadnt allowed sacks all playoffs, and you just said cam fumbled with no one near him.. miller stripped him

          • eYeDEF

            True Miller stripped him, but you’re a liar seeing how Cam got sacked in both of the playoff games he played before playing the Broncos. So again, my point stands.

          • TheTruth

            you’re point never stood and you don’t know me and you’re calling me a liar, yet, this website, that you waste money on, says remmers nor other allowed even a pressure let alone a sack.. idiot award of the year? rethorical

          • eYeDEF

            Yeah because you said the Carolina line never gave up sacks when clearly they did.

          • TheTruth

            I never said, you’re clearly a salty hater whos lost the debate, now your making things up, i said they had a much better line than us, and as bad as you think remmers was, schofield/harris were a lot worse, and then i said neither of their Tackles gave up sacks throughout the playoffs, take a lap

          • eYeDEF

            You said the Carolina line never gave up sacks in the playoffs. You lied. Just scroll up homer. The only reason it might not say so now is if you edited it, and if you did I can only laugh because that proves you know you said it.

          • TheTruth

            you’re retarded why would i edit? lol im not a dumb homer like you, i saw this stat before the game I had to search for that tweet, look it up with your “rich” subscription having ass

          • TheTruth

            and cam is no choker your high.

          • eYeDEF

            He is, the tape bears it out. He fumbled without anyone near him and refused to risk diving on the ball. It’s funny how you can’t argue with facts, but sticking in fingers in your ears chanting LALALALALA because you don’t want to believe what’s right in front of your face isn’t going to make the Truth any less true. It just makes it clear you can’t handle the Truth.

          • TheTruth

            sure, it wasnt the best secondary in the league, cam just happened to choke, but he demolished the cards and hawks with ease

          • eYeDEF

            Nope, the Carolina pass rush demolished the Hawks feeble offensive line. The second half of that game when Cam couldn’t do anything sums it up.

          • TheTruth

            both of those teams had much better lines than us so why did cam choke? hawks were 1st in run D and ppg, Cardinals also had an elite D

          • eYeDEF

            Cam couldn’t do ANYTHING in the second half against the Seahawks. Carolina went up 31-0 at the half because the pass rush overwhelmed the hawks OL and put points on the board that had nothing to do with the hawks D. Wilson threw a pick six from rushing his pass because the OL got overwhelmed, and Wilson NEVER throws pick sixes. Unlike Manning’s high career pick rate, Wilson’s got one of the lowest interception rates in the league among starting quarterbacks on par with Brady and Rodgers. He rarely gets picked once in a game, and Carolina picked him off twice that first half when he was rushing his throws.

            But hawks still almost won coming back down 31 points, scoring 24 points the second half but unfortunately 31 points was too much to come back from. That had everything to do with Carolina’s pass rush and a weak run game from Marshawn Lynch’s first game trying to rush back from midseason surgery. He was clearly rusty.

          • TheTruth

            he didn’t do anything because they played conservative, just like their D, youre such a homer lol, you’re the first person I heard say Cam got stopped the 2nd half, everyone knew they turned on cruise control

          • eYeDEF

            You didn’t even watch the game, how would you know? Just look at the game log yourself. They were obviously trying to score because the Seahawks starting putting points on the board and was ONE TOUCHDOWN AWAY from beating them you dumb homer. It’s funny how homers like you can’t use logic, so you make up stuff constantly.

          • TheTruth

            dude no one tries when you’re up 35 at half….. and you’re the best Team in the league. and PFF said they were very underrated on offense even being #1

          • eYeDEF

            Like I said, you can’t comment on a game you didn’t watch. Nor were they up 35 by the half, you can’t even get the score right.

          • TheTruth

            just can’t admit the Broncos were great

          • eYeDEF

            It’s not about admitting anything. I’m saying the 2015 Broncos were in no way better than the 2013 Seahawks. Neither the offense nor the defense. Of course the Broncos defense was great, but the hawks 2013 defense was better because of the offense they beat in the Super Bowl can in no way be compared to Carolina’s offense last year. This was exactly PFF’s conclusion too. Absolutely no way. It doesn’t pass the eye test when you look at the quality players at their offensive positions in the lineup, nor do the statistics back that up. Even if Broncos O wasn’t the greatest of all time, it was in the ballpark. Carolina’s O could in no way be considered anywhere near the ballpark.

          • TheTruth

            the Panthers did that vs a O line that was ass year but his recievers were open immediately seeing as he had 4 of them and only one of them came to play, its not like they got shadowed and we’re covered tight, they pussied out, if you play football with kids that have played for 5 years you can still scare them from playing well even if you’ve never rplayed, hawks D intimidated broncos O, and the o line hadn’t faced a good defense, or pass rusher, let alone the best at both, their D wasnthe better than this year’s, Broncos cb corp are far superior, stewart was top 10 in coverage, and ward was top 15 in run d, and he was playing a lot of man coverage on gronk and did well.

          • eYeDEF

            Only Broncos homers would agree with you because the facts don’t back it up. Legion of Boom secondary was superior in every way to Broncos. Sherman > Harris. Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor in 2013 were the best safety tandem in football. 2013 Browner, Thurmond, Maxwell, and Lane were FAR superior cornerbacks to what you had. The only place Broncos have edge is Von Miller. That’s it. But we had Bobby Wagner, KJ Wright, and Bruce Irvin. Both Wagner and KJ Wright are top 2 at their LB positions, Irvin is a top 10 strongside linebacker. Our DL was just superior. It’s not even close. That’s why PFF concluded what it did.

          • TheTruth

            Harris has graded better in coverage the last 4 seasons, has allowed less tds in his career than sherman in half of 2016…. and talib and roby combined allowed less TDS than browner. von wouldve easily been the best in the front 7, especially the year before the SB when his pass rush grade was much higher than his this year (1st) and a good amount higher than macks this year (1st)

          • eYeDEF

            Like I said, Harris in no way comes close to Sherman. He doesn’t follow his all over the field. He’s not in the same class.

          • eYeDEF

            Harris had never graded better in coverage. You’re making stuff up again. Not this year or any year in the past.

          • eYeDEF

            It also doesn’t matter if they pussied out or not. The mental edge is part of the game. His receivers suck.

          • TheTruth

            not all of them, Demaryius set a record for catches and got 100+ yards, and a td in garbage time

          • eYeDEF

            DT only set a record and got his yardage in garbage time too. When the game actually mattered he pussified himself like the rest.

          • TheTruth

            the Panthers set a record for 31 games with 100 rushing yards, i knew we would break that streak they had a 235 lb rb with a 250 lb fb and a 245 lb qb and a great run blocking line, withe Olsen being one of the better blockers.

          • eYeDEF

            You should check yourself. Sounds like you’re off your meds again when the Panthers only played in 19 games last year.

          • TheTruth

            they didn’t run it 40 times or 30 times they threw the ball enough to get 35 tds smh you’re dumb.

          • eYeDEF

            WAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It doesn’t matter because they only averaged 4.3 yards per attempt you stupid fuck. We’re talking about the rushing game remember? Using your logic, a team that throws for a lot of touchdowns has the best running game in the last 30 years. You’re literally about as retarded as they come.

          • TheTruth

            not in terms of numbers they were the best in terms of always doing well and reaching 100, and they did it every game for over two years when the hawks ran just as much and got just as many yards but never did it for that many games in a row, no one has ever done it 32 games in a row

          • eYeDEF

            What do you mean ‘in terms of numbers’? You’re talking gibberish because in terms of numbers it couldn’t be more clear they averaged 4.3 yards per carry as a team. That’s not bad but it’s hardly the best rushing offense in the last 30 years like you claimed above when it was only the 10th best last year. Like I said, with rushing it’s all about efficiency and getting the most yards per attempt, not about 100 yard games. That’s why the first running back stat you look at when judging how good a running back is, assuming they have a minimum number of carries to make that judgement, is YARDS PER ATTEMPT. You don’t look at how many 100 yard games they had.

            Carolina didn’t even have as good a rushing game as the hawks did in 2014 when they led the league with 2,762 yards and 5.3 yards per attempt as Wilson ran for 849 yards and Lynch 1306 to blow away Cam’s 636 yards Stewart’s 989.

          • TheTruth

            it’s consistancy they always moved the ball, they did it easily, they chewed up clock. the Panthers were an overall better team than the 13 broncos, without von harris wolfe vickerson Moore Woodyard and clady the Panthers are a SHIT LOAD better, especially if your best TE is the biggest on the field and most scared

          • eYeDEF

            Nope. Carolina had a better defense but was not better than the 2013 Broncos because their offense was loads better, the most prolific point scoring offense of all time. Football Outsiders has their total DVOA at 32% and Carolina at 26%. So again, no way. Not even close.

          • TheTruth

            it’s the most prolific because of the league that o wouldnt have reached 55 tds in marines days, and Mariano threw 48 20 years ago, the greatest show on turf was the most dangerous and unstoppable, you can stop ANY pass game with a great rusher, ask broncos in 2013, pats in11 when they scored like 7 less points than the Broncos In 13.

          • eYeDEF

            Greatest show on turf couldn’t even beat the Patriots in the SB. Ridiculous. They barely beat the Titans in the other one.

            I’m also just not buying a great pass rusher can stop any passing game. Von Miller couldn’t stop Russell Wilson when he faced him in the regular season in 2014. So no, you can’t stop any passing game with a great rusher. That’s a demonstrated falsehood.

          • Leelue

            Seattle was winning the game 36-0 by the time Denver scored. It’s harder to compare apples to apples here since they really didn’t have all that much to play for at that point against the clearly outmatched and blown out broncos.

            But do we have a Yards per drive stat from both games? That’s probably useful.

          • anon76returns

            Yards per drive- depends if you want to count Ramirez’s snap over Manning’s head as a drive or not. If not, then in SB XLVIII the Seahawks gave up 112 yards on 4 drives (28.0 ypd) in the first half (the “competitive” phase of the game), and 306 yards on 10 drives (30.6 ypd) over the course of the game. Denver’s offense averaged 38.2 ypd in the regular season that year, and Seattle’s defense averaged allowing 26.1 ypd.
            In SB50 Carolina got 161 yards on 8 drives (20.1 ypd) in the first half, and 315 yards on 26 drives (19.7 ypd) over the course of the game. Carolina’s offense averaged 32.1 ypd in the regular season this year, and Denver’s defense averaged allowing 24.5 ypd.

  • Aaron McFarland

    I will say this being a die hard Bronco fan, Holding the Broncos to 8 points in that game, is still pretty impressive, with them scoring the most ever in a season. I cannot argue with this article.

  • ABC

    The problem with focusing on points, as you rightfully point out but then fail to pursue, is that Denver’s offense was horrendous this year. The points numbers include all the Pick 6’s that Manning and Osweiler threw. There were also turnovers that resulted in very short fields. In total, Denver threw 23 interceptions and fumbled 8 times — 31 total turnovers (nearly 2 times per game). In 2013, Seattle turned the ball over only 19 times (only slightly more than 1 time per game). Just because one team’s offense turned the ball over 1 fewer time per game doesn’t mean that the defense is necessarily better. I’m usually impressed by the analysis on this site, but this article lacks the usual rigorous analysis.

    • NotSoGood

      Exactly… PFF is not focusing very well. lol

  • mariolosasso

    That makes no sense. Of course the Broncos gave up more points. Their offense was terrible all season long. I would be the Seahawks never had 11 straight 3 and out possessions at any point in the 2013 season.

    Denver was better. Only the Ravens and Bears had a better Super Bowl Champion D than Denver.

    • orangeandblueaussie

      And the 76 Steelers…

      I do wonder how the Bronco’s pass coverage ranks so low….

      • mariolosasso

        I wonder how much of that had to do with their safeties being hurt the 2nd half of the season. Or maybe the offense was just so inept that their opponents had a lot more possessions.

        • orangeandblueaussie

          I realise PFF scores transcend the day to day stats but Denver was the number 1 defense in yards per pass attempt. That was even with the safety issues.
          I struggle to understand how they could rank 37th in the short time that PFF has been around. It just doesn’t seem right.

        • Frank Yi

          Ward and Stewart both missed games with injuries. Having said that:

          The 2013 Seahawks only had 1 player (LB Micharl Morgan) finish with a negative coverage grade. Outside of their top 6 (Sherman, Browner, Thurmond, Maxwell, Thomas, Chancellor) DBs by snaps, they got 267 snaps from reserve DBs.

          The 2015 Broncos had 5 (D. Ware, and 4 DBs – Josh Bush, Shiloh Keo, Kayvon Webster, and Omar Bolden). The Broncos had 473 from the reserves outside of their top 6 (Harris, Talib, Roby, Ward, Stewart, Bruton).

          So, there is a bit to it, but at the end of the day your players have to perform, regardless who is in the lineup.

          Denver had a clear edge in run d and a slight edge in pass rush. Seattle had a clear edge in coverage. The defenses were built differently, both were great.

          But, given how much dead weight the Denver defense had to carry (turnovers from the offense, field position), you’d think you have to give Denver’s D the edge. The 2013 had the 13th ranked offense by PFF overall (+80.8). The 2015 Broncos had the 24th ranked offense (-79.3).

          • Jefferson

            The Broncos were not even the number one scoring defense this year (the Hawks were!).

            The 2013 Seahawks relative defensive dominance during their season and against the #1 scoring defense of all time stands.

            Football Outsiders which is far more useful to do this sort of comparison ranks the 2013 Seahawks every so slightly above the 2015 Broncos.

          • Jefferson

            … stands out (it should read above).

          • Frank Yi

            Points allowed is a flawed measure of defense performance for reasons stated in the article. In addition, the 2013 Seahawks offense was clearly superior to the 2015 Denver offense (as my post stated). Points are going to be given up due to bad field position (due to the offense being unable to move the ball) and giveaways (field position and defensive scores) that have nothing to do with the actual performance of the defense.

            Football Outsiders also do great analytics, but what makes their measures “far more useful”? I’m not doubting their validity, but they are not without their flaws as well. They gave the Seahawks o-line the 4th BEST run block rating in 2015. This same season, PFF gave the Seahawks the 4th WORST run block grade. The 2015 Seahawks run game was successful due to having the highest run grade on the season.

          • YouBarkIBite

            FO is not perfect (and they will freely admit so) but PFF has some huge shortcomings when using their grades for statistical analysis.

            1) They don’t adjust for opponent strength; if you are in the NFC West and have to block Calais Campbell and Aaron Donald 4 games a year, this will definitely skew your results against someone going against lesser DTs.

            2) Their grades lack any weighting or scaling. In PFF’s system, lineman generate WAY more gradeable plays than any other position (this was somewhat addressed by their new subscription service which puts everyone on the same scale, but they are quoting their old raw grades above). Even if you believe a great DE is worth more than a great CB, they are certainly not worth 3x that amount. I wouldn’t be surprised if Seattle’s advantage in coverage is actually much more significant than Denver’s advantage in run and pass rush when adjusted for relative scale.

            PFF is good as a scouting and game charting service, but their statistical analysis trails far, far behind FO.

          • anon76returns

            FO says that there’s a virtual wash between the 2015 Broncos and 2013 Seahawks, -25.8% vs -25.9% DVOA, respectively, and their DVOA metric does not explicitly take into account pass rush, which was an advantage for the Broncos.
            In terms of coverage, the 2015 Broncos had better DVOA vs. the #1 WR, the #2 WR, “other” WRs, and RBs, while the Seahawks were only better in coverage against TEs (although the margin there was substantial).

          • anon76returns

            The Broncos were indeed the top scoring defense on a points/drive basis, which negates (as much as possible) the effects of a sputtering offense. Football Outsiders kindly provides these stats, so you can see for yourself.
            As for FO’s total DVOA, they give Denver’s D a -25.8% DVOA, and Seattle’s a -25.9%. I don’t think any of the FO guys would seriously say that their rating shows one unit or the other having an edge. The difference is well within the margin of error, especially when you consider that the values are normalized to the strength of the offenses and defenses in that particular season. Were the Broncos’ 2015 defense or the Seahawks’ 2013 defense facing better offenses? DVOA does not know (or care). What you can say from the number is that both units basically dominated their respective opposition to an equal extent.

          • LACsportsdude

            I used to view Football Outsiders as the top stat analytics. This year they didn’t seem to come close to predicting who would advance towards the playoffs and through the playoffs. Their measurements worked to justify past results, but did not predict future success. NE, Cards, Seattle, Carolina all had their time in the FOutsider light, and then would get burned in the emergent games. PFF gets my final vote.

          • Evan Eberhardt

            Wilson often pulled off crazy plays on offense in 2013 (still does, won them the Vikings game this playoffs with one), and Lynch was at the top of his game. 2015 Manning had the worst mobility probably in NFL history (numerous self-sacks once a defender was even near) and started the season as an INT machine. And the running game was erratic, getting stuffed entirely several games. Yet the defense continually bailed out the team. It’s a historical defensive season, easily eclipsing any but the 2000 Ravens. What I recall from the 2013 Seahawks was a very solid front 7 but an all-time secondary. It was hard to throw on them and they kept yards after catch to a bare minimum (and what did Denver specialize in that year? Sure as hell wasn’t the running game). I recall Kapernick nearly beating them with his feet in the NFCCG, and he may have had he stuck to it and not foolishly thrown at Sherman on that last drive.

        • LostAlone

          The injuries didn’t help but honestly I think that grade is overall skewed by a couple of bad performances. The Steelers game was awful for the secondary they weren’t great against New England either. But those two performances were, frankly, complete anomalies. Against Brady and Ben (both in MVP form) they had bad outings but the rest of the season they were great.

          Now the 2013 Hawks weren’t playing no slouches but they certainly racked up points against woeful opponents. 5 picks from Eli, for example, does rather pad your stats. The Hawks superbowl performance was, I think, more to do with the Hawks perfectly predicting what they would face than simply being better players.

          It’s hard to say what that really shows honestly, because the Broncos secondary would still be weaker than the Hawks one, but I think overall the Bronco’s just pip them. I think between their impenetrable run defense and intimidating pass rush the Broncos are the better over all D.

          • Jefferson

            PFF is way off in its metrics. Football Outsiders is much more on the mark. The 2013 Hawks had a great run defense, though not quite as good as the 2016 Broncos. Secondary was much better.

            The Hawks defense also decimated the number one scoring offense of all time. The Panthers are not in the same league, not even close.

      • TheTruth

        They played elite Passing attacks unlike the 13 hawks

    • Evan Eberhardt

      This is the key point, IMO. Only the homers who watched all 19 games (and pre-season) can grasp just how lousy the offense was for 2015 (and not just scoring, but even managing a first-down at times). Now, it’s not fair to fault other great defenses that had better offenses, but nonetheless, they DO benefit from that and there is simply no way to know if they would have remained as stout or had some trouble being as dominant with an offense that continually punted the ball and turned it over. The 85 Bears had the #2 offense, so that hurts their argument as best ever. To me, only the 2000 Ravens can compare (they had a 5 game stretch without a TD if I recall correctly). Both teams were CLEARLY carried by the defense. However, the 2015 Broncos’ defense have the rare distinction of playing an entire SB with the game on the line and continuing to perform at an elite level (16-10 before the strip by Miller late in the 4th quarter). The 2002 Bucs, 85 Bears, 2013 Seahawks all had huge leads by half, which forces offenses into riskier play and usually ensures a blowout. 2000 Ravens had the SB won by the 3rd quarter. Denver’s offense basically managed two FG drives for SB 50, turned it over twice, and punted the rest, usually after a 3-and-out. Yet, the defense held the top ranked offense (that routinely scorched every other opponent it faced all season) to 10 points, had 7 sacks, 4 turnovers, one TD, and set up the other TD. It was impressive, to put it mildly…lol.

  • Scott Humble

    While Denver’s defensive performance in the SB was outstanding, I would argue that they were more dominant against the Packers. Coincidentally, their offensive performance was very good in that game. After that, the offense seemed to fall off a cliff. While I can appreciate that yardage totals and PPG may still favor the Seahawks, I would also say that the SB does not represent their most dominant performance.

    In the end, we all know that Denver would not have secured the Lombardi without their defense. Arguably, they could have had a terrible season if the defense was merely good. Statistical analysis of defensive performance simply doesn’t capture the magnitude of what they accomplished.

    Denver’s offense was FAR short of a SB caliber unit. I’ve never seen anything like it. The analysis needs to go much deeper to really understand that. As great as Seattle’s defense was in 2013, their offense made short work of Denver’s 2013 defense as well.

    How can a defensive unit overcome a relatively weak offensive performance? The algorithms say that they should have lost. The game planning is certainly a factor but how many defensive units could execute that kind of strategy? Those are the questions that go through my mind that this analysis doesn’t account for.

    • Jefferson

      I certainly agree that the Seahawks had a better offense, which made their victory in the Superbowl that much more lopsided, but that in no way diminishes the Seahawks’ defensive performance in the Superbowl, in absolute or relative terms.

      Superbowl comparisons are pretty weak to use as a yardstick, but if they mean anything, the 2013 Broncos offense was simply on another level than the 2015 Panthers. Per Football Outsiders: 2013 Broncos 33.5% Offensive DVOA vs. 2015 Panthers 9.9% Offensive DVOA.

      • Scott Humble

        You are right. That doesn’t diminish the defensive performance of the 2013 Seahawks. But if they are going to use a single performance as a tie breaker, SB50 doesn’t seem like it would be Denver’s strongest performance for the season. I could be wrong. If that is what it comes down to, then they are probably pretty close to one another. They could always flip a coin but on occasion, that can be controversial as well.

  • Ben G

    Can you analyze time on the field?

    The sputtering Denver offense gave the D a lot of time on the field, meaning they had to make more plays, and would’ve been more worn out.

    I’d be interested to know how those numbers can be applied to this rubric.

    • Four Touchdowns

      You can analyze the number of drives each defense played against and then average the stats out on a per drive basis.

      You could also factor in time of possession. The 2013 Seahawks had an incredible running game, which eats up TOP, while the Broncos were mediocre at rushing and passing on the offensive side of the ball.

      Finally, you could also check the quality of offenses each team faced via a PFF average grade or DVOA.

  • TJ Smith

    I have to go with Seattle with this. Denver has the best pass rush I have ever seen. No question about that. Although I just re-watched the Seattle Denver Superbowl and you see how much better the Seahawks pass rush was when they had that 3rd speed Rusher in Clemons. Watching the two teams all year the Broncos secondary was a little more shaky. Think Seattle just stronger at linebacker and in the secondary.

    Also that Seattle team had a few games middle of the year where they were ran on that effected there overall grade. Most games they were pretty elite in run defense as well.

    In terms of the Superbowl argument not sure its much of an argument. Carolina might have led the league in scoring but they were not the best offensive team in football. They took advantage of a ton of short fields. Actually ranked as a bottom tier passing attack. Once it was obvious that the Panthers couldn’t run on the Broncos it was going to be ugly. Personally I’m not sure if the Broncos beat the Steelers if Brown is playing.

    Also feel Seattle had the more dominating performances throughout the year. They were crazy deep. They had Browner who use to be good and Maxwell. They had Thurmond and Lane. Bennett and Avril didn’t even start. Talib I like but he really a poor man’s version of Richard Sherman. Earl Thomas will be a future HOFer.Kam and Bobby I would take over there Denver counterparts.

    I would say if Seattle is a 10 on defense then Denver was a 9.5. They were close and even better at doing a few things. Seattle’s secondary and the depth is the difference for me.

    • Jefferson

      Agree with everything above. By position group, the 2013 Seahawks were better at LB, CB, and Safety while the 2015 Broncos were superior on the Defensive Line only. And the Hawks were by no mean weak at all at pass rush or run defense.

      This translates to a more balanced defense capable of dominating a greater variety of offensive styles and gameplans.

      • Tyler

        Better at LB? Where Denver has Ware, Miller, Marshall, and Trevathan? Thats at least a wash.

      • anon76returns

        Better at CB is a huge stretch. Sherman was great, but Maxwell/Browner/Thurmond/Lane were on the team, too. Broncos have CHJ, who has graded out higher on PFF in the 5 seasons both he and Sherman have been in the league, and Talib and Roby are simply better than Maxwell and the Seahawks’ various slot guys. All told, for this season the Broncos had the highest graded pair of ILBs (5th and 6th in the league), the highest graded trio of CBs (3rd, 27th, 33rd), the highest graded safety trio (6, 5, 15), top trio of interior defenders (10th, 17th, and 30th), along with the best trio of edge rushers this year. As a unit, their +275 combined grade is 25% higher than the +220 grade of the Seattle unit from 2013, and really is without a weakness.

        • eYeDEF

          You’re high. CHJ didn’t even have enough snaps to qualify outgrading Sherman before last season. Plus Sherman is indisputably the better corner. Sherman shut down Antonio Brown this year and CHJ was absolutely schooled by Brown and made him look like an arena football league corner. Sherman has never had a game where he was schooled as badly as Brown made CHJ look.

          • anon76returns

            You’re drunk.
            CHJ had 904 snaps in 2012 and 1040 snaps in 2013.
            Sherman had 950 snaps in 2012 and 979 snaps in 2013.
            I guess by your logic Sherman didn’t have enough snaps to qualify to outrage Sherman, either.
            CHJ had the worst game of his career against Brown, it’s true. It’s also true that even with that game, he still graded higher than Sherman this year. He also graded higher than Sherman last year. And he’s given up less TD’s over his career in spite of spending more snaps in coverage than Sherman has.

          • eYeDEF

            Yeah out of the slot which is not at all the same thing. It’s why he was never in consideration for All Pro honors until last year. Try again sam.

          • anon76returns

            It may shock you to learn that the Broncos weren’t in nickel for 1000 snaps in any season. CHJ plays outside in base and slot in nickel, and he doesn’t give up TDs in either situation. All Pro honors are much better than Pro Bowl honors, but still subject to the usual biases in recognition, and is particularly biased against recognizing undrafted guys.
            The guys who chart every player over every snap all season long (Matt Miller at B/R and PFF) both recognized CHJ as a top 5 talent since 2012. If you think sportswriters in the AP have a more valid opinion on defensive performance than PFF, then the conversation is over.

          • eYeDEF

            I’m not talking about AP All Pro, although there’s that too. I’m talking about PFF All Pro where 2014 was the first year CHJ made the cut. There’s a reason for that, he didn’t play enough snaps on the outside to qualify prior. 2014 was the only year that CHJ finished ahead of Sherman on PFF’s All Pro first team. There’s a reason for that too. Sherman’s been the superior corner over the last 4 years.

          • anon76returns

            2012: Sherman was first team PFF All Pro, CHJ “received consideration” but was beat out by teammate Champ Bailey for 2nd team.
            2013: Both Sherman and CHJ were 2nd team PFF All Pro CBs.
            2014: Harris was 1st team, Sherman 2nd team.
            2015: Sherman 1st team, CHJ 2nd team.

            They’re both regulars on the list, with Sherman holding a slight edge right now due to PFF classifying Mathieu as a CB. Had he been classified as a S, CHJ would have 3 1st team nods to Shermans two 1st team nods and wo second team nods. Throughout all four seasons CHJ played outside in base, and slot CB in nickel. His number of snaps in either role hasn’t really changed in 4 years, so I don’t know what you’re going on about.

          • theflanman420420 .

            Well put. It seems eyedef couldn’t handle the facts you laid out and would have rather kept the comparisons going with opinions instead haha. CHJ is consistently underrated and d flies under the radar whereas Sherman is usually overrated and gets the spotlight no matter what.

          • eYeDEF

            WTF are you talking about?

            2013: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/06/2013-pff-all-pro-team/2/

            Well isn’t that weird, CHJ is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND! The blurb mentions that it was practically a coin flip between Revis and Sherman for first team All Pro, and even mentioned the 4th spot of Peterson edging out KEENAN LEWIS. CHJ is the incredible missing man.

            2012: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/02/2012-pff-all-pro-team/2/

            Well how weird again, nothing about CHJ “received consideration”. Are you dreaming up a fantasy of your wishful thinking and applying it to reality?

            TBH I was giving CHJ the benefit of the doubt that he must not have played enough snaps to qualify as to why he was completely shut out in 2012 from 2013 from any All Pro mentions because I’ve long respected his play enough that I was sure that was the reason for his absence.

            But I’ll go ahead and take your word for it and just assume he was so outplayed in 2012 and 2013 that he didn’t even warrant mention with the top 4 cornerbacks in 2012 (6 when you consider they honored the slot that year too) or even the top 5 cornerbacks mentioned in 2013.

            So I’ll repeat the obvious for your benefit. CHJ didn’t even make the cut for PFF All Pro in two of the last four years. Sherman was 1st team All Pro twice, missing 3 times by a tiebreaking ‘unnamed analyst’, and 2nd team twice.

            My point stands while you flail. Sherman is indisputably the superior corner.

          • anon76returns

            Literally, from the links you provided:
            2013: “Slot Cornerback: Tyrann Mathieu (ARZ)
            If we’re going to have a slot receiver then we need a slot corner. In a heated discussion, the complete play of Mathieu — who played base downs as a safety and moved to the slot in the Cardinals’ nickel and dime packages — won out despite him missing time toward the end of the season. Harris makes the second team in large part due to his overall game, an area where Brandon Boykin missed out. Being so close to the action, we liked our slot cornerback to have a bigger impact on more areas than just coverage.
            Second Team: Chris Harris (DEN)”
            2012: “Second Team: Champ Bailey (DEN) – The more we thought about it the more the job Bailey does covering a team’s top receiver goes underappreciated. A tight selection with Tim Jennings and Chris Harris both earning consideration here.”

            So, in both 2015 and 2013 CHJ was beat out for 1st team by Mathieu, who PFF admits could have been classified as a S, which is how he’s listed on the Cardinals’ roster page (http://www.azcardinals.com/roster/player-roster.html). Sherman has the “edge” in PFF All Pro selections purely due to how PFF decided to classify Mathieu, which has absolutely 0 reflection on the relative merits of CHJ or Sherman.
            As for PFF grades, for 2015 you can just go by the reported “player ranking”, where CHJ was 3rd and Sherman was 7th.
            For 2014, you can see the relative season grades here: http://www.milehighreport.com/2015/4/6/8344141/who-is-the-best-cornerback-in-the-nfl-broncos-cb-chris-harris-jr#4712042
            Long story short, CHJ +28.4, Sherman +18.2
            For 2013 & 2012 regular seasons, the respective grades can be found here:
            http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/12/13/7380765/chris-harris-jr-deserves-every-single-penny-of-his-new-deal-and-more
            Long story short, CHJ +20.0 & +12.2 for ’12 and ’13, respectively, Sherman +25.7 & +13.4.
            So overall, CHJ had +28.4+12.2+20.0 = +60.6 from 2012-2014.
            Sherman had +18.2+13.4+25.7 = 57.3.
            CHJ had better grades overall from 2012-2014, and apparently extended that with a (slightly) better grade this year.
            I accept your apology.

  • themacabre

    Comparisons like this are worthless if you don’t look at how each respective teams offense played during the year. You can argue the Denver defense had their back against the wall game in and game out with the incredibly poor performance of Manning and the Denver offense.

    • Evan Eberhardt

      I agree. Both defenses were awesome, but Denver’s was ROUTINELY put in bad spots (the punter sucked ALL year until the playoffs, I might add, whereas Seattle’s guy was pinning teams deep all season).

  • Ben M

    OK. As a Carolina fan, my congratulations to the Broncos and their fans.

    – Now with that out of the way –

    Denver’s defense was well-dialed-in for Carolina’s offensive weaknesses. The analysis shows where Denver’s only possible weakness was in pass-coverage and Carolina worked and failed to exploit that. Missed opportunity.

    1. Lets get this out of the way, The ruled incompletion against Jerricho Cotchery was a bad call. It could have changed the game. Ok, I said it.
    2. Cam overthrew open receivers. At least twice
    3. Receivers bobbled or dropped balls.
    4. Carolina failed to adjust to the Denver pass rush. This is as bad as Seattle not going with Marshawn Lynch on the goal line against the Pats. Obvious and stupid coaching. Yes, Von Miller was awesome and brilliant. But Carolina made an amateur attempt at adjustment. That’s mystifying.

    As a fan, I hope to see Cam gain resilience and better adversity behavior. He looks to have a way to go.

    • TheTruth

      Cam over threw them because of the rush, Manning was flustered also and that was due to injuries

    • Chuck_Darwin

      Broncos fan here. Your observations are all measured and mostly accurate. The supposedly blown call, though, was not blown. Replays show the receiver not putting the ball away, the ball hitting the ground, the the receiver rolls over and gains control. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/clutch-encounters/2016/clutch-encounters-super-bowl-50

      To be fair to your coaches, when you have Demarcus Ware on one side and Von Miller on the other, it’s tough to decide which tackle gets extra help. The Broncos were also getting a consistent push up the middle from Jackson and Wolfe. And it seemed to me like every time Cam audibled into max protection the Broncos would be dropping 7 or 8 into coverage (and then still managed to generate some pressure with 3 or 4). Your Panthers just ran into a buzzsaw, that’s all. I go back all the way to the original Orange Crush as a Denver fan–that D was amazing, but still not on the level of this D. I don’t think we will ever see another Broncos defense as good as the D on the 2015 team. If Cam and co. make it back next year they’ll have as good a shot as anyone to get a ring.

      • Ben M

        Hi Darwin,

        To quote no one:
        “When ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’ are candy and nuts, then every day will be Christmas”

        1. The catch/no catch: had it been called ‘a catch’ there would not have been enough evidence to over turn either. But it’s done now. No catch. The ruling.
        2. Panthers lived and died by the “no respect” theme. All year they played with passion and anger because the got “no respect”. Then came the superbowl and they could not handle the spotlight and the “respect”. Conversely, Denver was more motivated because they felt “disrespected”, thus, the Panthers died by it.
        3. Panther’s tackles are Michael Oher, an improving retread, and Mike Remmers, an undrafted understudy. Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware were designed to blow up “good” tackles and they dined on “mediocre” and “awful”.
        4. Carolina failed to adjust for Miller/Ware in their blocking (especially chipping) schemes. Mystifying to me.

        Oh well. I guess my Panthers Super Bowl Champions hoodie is being worn by some needy kid in Honduras now. :-)

  • NotSoGood

    I’ll take the Broncos 2015 over the Seahawks defense. The hawks offense have Lynch and Wilson whom both can run. This Broncos 2015 has nobody in the backfield like Lynch and Wilson. As a team Denver is the better defense overall.

  • crosseyedlemon

    I think what the data really shows here is that both defenses had a weak spot which they managed to minimize. That is an indication that excellent coaching and scheme adjustments were a major reason for their success.

    • TheTruth

      Neither Defenses had weaknesses, seahawks were slightly overrated, they didnt play any good-great offenses, Broncos played them all year, away. They dominated them in the playoffs, only steelers got over 300 yards in the air due to both safeties missing the game

  • TheTruth

    I think the Truth is, the Broncos played much better offense, and not to fault the Seahawks, but the Broncos went into the Pittsburgh with both starting safeties out, and the backup played 70 snaps with a season ending injury against bem and his recievers, they also played Tom without Ward and the starting NT. Not to mentiom the insane amount of 3 and outs. This D had to endure the same punishment the ’11 Broncos did with Tebow, except it wasnt fully overshadowed by their QB this time. The ’13 ‘hawks didnt face any good, or great offenses, let alone a few of them, multiple times. Look at the Broncos dominance of the best Offenses in the league in the Playoffs, less than 18 ppg with the best Corner in the league with a shoulder at 50%. Broncos 15-16 D>any Defense. The ’13 Broncos Offenses with their All Pro LT playing could drop 24 easy on 85 bears. Btw, the 2013 SB would be different if this years MVP Miller was playing, and the leagues hest corner (Harris) and their starting FS, and DT, and MLB, and starting LT, and the top 5 DE Wolfe. Hawks were slightly overrated. Im a Broncos fan, but the Truth is the Truth.

    • eYeDEF

      43-8 against the best offense of all time is not overrated.

      • TheTruth

        It is when Peytons blindside tackle (who was an all pro) misses the SB, against the best pass rush). Plus Decker was less physical than the smaller Sanders. Our run game was horrid that year also. Being down the best LT in the league hurts, imagine if the panthers had their backup blocking Von or Ware in the SB? Also Von missed the SB vs Seahawks, imagine this SB without its MOST VALUABLE PLAYER aka Broncos Mvp. Also the 2nd best defensive player on the best defense (Harris) was out. Plus the starting DT, and MLb, and FS, and DE. Add those to the 2013 game vs the conpletely healthy hawks and its a different game.

        • eYeDEF

          Regardless, the Denver offense was still an order of magnitude more explosive than Cam’s Panthers. It’s not like he had competent tackles protecting him either and his wide receivers were a farce compared to Denver’s. It’s not even close.

          • TheTruth

            The panthers o line was one of the best in pass pro this year, and Demaryius’ shoulder was out of vis socket the first drive, decker was a little girl and was dominated by browner. If the Broncos had there all pro LT playing, and the starting RT playing his position, half of the hawks’ points wouldnt have gone to them, and not to fault them, but ramirez gave them 2 points, the ball, and a whole lot of momentum.

          • eYeDEF

            And the REASON for DT’s shoulder getting stuffed and Decker getting dominated was because they were shut down by a far superior defense. It’s weird how you’re making excuses as to why the Broncos didn’t play their best without recognizing they didn’t play their best because, like your coach at the time said, they hit a buzzsaw. If Denver’s D had taken Panthers players out of the game with their physical play, you wouldn’t be making excuses that the Panthers didn’t have their best players on the field. Just like your point about Denver missing their best tackle all season. I could point to the Panthers not having Kelvin Benjamin as to why they didn’t play their best. But it’d be irrelevant. Those players weren’t on those teams. And there’s no way you can say the Carolina line was one of the best in pass protection when Mike Remmers is probably the worst starting tackle at pass pro in the league. Absolutely no way.

          • TheTruth

            Not having your #1 reciever doesnt help the pass rush like throwing in some below average tackle againdt their best rusher. I also stated they got the ball, all the momentum, and 2 points on the Broncos first snap, and shut down defense, and technique/skill dont dislocate shoulders, 6’3 safeties do, decker is a boy in a mans body, unlike Sanders who is the opposite which is more important, ask barkley

          • eYeDEF

            Look at all these midseason injuries the Hawks had. They were broken and hobbled in the playoffs, they weren’t even at full strength, yet they still crushed the greatest offense of all time like a mosquito.

            http://blog.seattlepi.com/football/2013/11/05/reinforcements-coming-soon-for-injury-gutted-seattle-seahawks/

            So my point stands. The seahawks were far worse off than the broncos and still annihilated the greatest offense of all time.

          • TheTruth

            If Von, Wolfe, Harris (all top 5 in their position), Moore, Vickerson, Clady wouldve playedit wouldnve been different, and if one of our first two centers before Ramirez (was a good guard before moving to C and giving the hawks a jumpstart) wouldve played it would be different. Take the hawks #1 corner, LOLB (who was their mvp) #1 DE, #1 DT, #1 FS, #1 LT (leaving Miller vs a no name back up) and give Peyton 3 points to start the game with momentum and its maybe 52-7

          • Evan Eberhardt

            Apples to oranges. 2015 Panthers were a run based offense, especially with Cam (it ought to look awfully familiar to a Seahawks fan…lol). 2013 Denver was historic with passing, but that made them one-dimensional and they faced a historic pass defense.

          • eYeDEF

            What does that have to do with anything? So because the historic offense was facing a more historic defense, that doesn’t make it an apples to oranges comparison just because your side comes up with the short stick. That’s a perfectly valid comparison. The Broncos come out with the inferior unit so that makes it an orange in your mind. Ok. But PFF disagrees.

      • TheTruth

        If you want to know who the best is, look at who they played, and where.

        • eYeDEF

          Exactly. The Seahawks D held the best offense of all time to 8 points. The Broncos held a far cry from the best offense of all time to 10 points. It’s no contest.

          • theflanman420420 .

            You are a broken record dude, and clearly a hawks homer.

          • eYeDEF

            So says the hater.

      • Evan Eberhardt

        Highest scoring isn’t the best, especially given the cupcake schedule that season. 2013 Denver was WAY too pass dependent, which played right into Seattle’s strengths. The 49’s were more run oriented and came awfully close to winning the NFCCG (and would have had they stuck to the ground on that last drive, IMO).

        • eYeDEF

          PFF disagrees. They called them the greatest of all time that year, and you can read it in the article above. Every Broncos fan was saying it. That doesn’t change now just because you find it inconvenient.

    • Evan Eberhardt

      Some homer bias here, but also some truth. SB 48 was a perfect storm (basically even was a home game for Seattle, with 3-1 fan advantage, loudest SB I have ever heard by far). Seattle’s pass rush and secondary were perfect match-ups and blew-up the game in short order. Denver’s defense was out 5 starters (including MIller, as you mentioned, which the world just learned is a one-man wrecking crew). Add in a superior special teams for Seattle that added another easy TD for them, and a blowout isn’t all that surprising. Denver had to keep close in that game and needed multiple FGs, which they probably could have gotten, to have a chance. But once it was 15-0 they were already in desperation mode and crapped the bed further.

      As Carolina just displayed once again this year, blowout wins are not all that impressive. The opponents usually get desperate/sloppy and their will to fight evaporates in the 2nd half. That was SB 48. SB 50, however, was 16-10 late in the 4th. Hell, had Cam shined and pulled off some fireworks, they win 17-16. But Denver’s defense prevailed, once again, and under the highest stakes on the biggest stage. That is what makes it all the more legendary.

      • TheTruth

        Yes exactly, injuries ruined the entire season, from the LT coming off 1st all pro year to the starting amd back up centers, to Bailey who was 4th in yards allowed the year before, to even a choking, but quality starter in Moore, and a starting DT also out, to Miller, to Harris who hadnt given up a TD in a year, and Wolfe who was having a good year they wouldve all changed the game a little. A slow old hurt Bailey was covering the fastest man in the league who was completely fresh, DRC was the best Broncos defender out there besides Malik

  • TheTruth

    Look at who the hawks played in 2013, and where… says it all, just like the Panthers this year. Hawks played two decent offenses (yes they dominated the Broncos, although Broncos had 3 pro bowlers out and the SB MvP Miller) Broncos played Pats 2x, Steelers 2x, Raiders 2x, Chargers 2x, Packers, Lions, Bears, Ravens, Bengals, and Colts, all of which had better passing attacks than anyone the Seahawks played besides saints (who they played in seattle, surprise) had the Broncos played the same teams hawks did in 2013, they wouldve been #1 in pass and run for all time. They also played a few games without there starting safeties vs HoF QBs. If you think hawks had a better D than No.

  • mlander80

    The defenses are too different to fairly analyze, this will be debated for years to come with no clear winner (Even though Denver didn’t even have the top scoring defense this year, that was Seattle for the 4th straight year, along with the DVOA title for 4 years straight too).

    Now comparing overall teams it’s no competition. The 2013 Seahawks offense is clearly heads and shoulders over 2015 Denver’s, making them likely to win any head to head matchup.

  • Chillmasta

    This is article and these are the comments.

    PFF “Hawks have the best defense.”
    Random Broncos Homer “No pls stahp PFF!!!1!”

  • eYeDEF

    But you’ve never cared what PFF has to say except when it confirms your homerism, like I was saying earlier. You’re a cherry picker, so citing PFF now doesn’t help your cause.

    • TheTruth

      you’re an idiot and typical idiot fan who only believes what people who write articles say. LOOK AT WHO THEY PLAYED. one good passing qb, with only one weapn who is Brees and graham. then Ryan and Julio thats it. look at who we played. and the Broncos played the best passing attack in the league and the best since the Broncos in 13, without their first 3 safeties. and they played the pats week 12 without waRd and the starting NT amongst other good to great passing attacks and more than once. unlike saints and falcons. they played weaker passing opponents, with less injuries all year, and they were in their 3rd year in the system, plus the best run game in the league which you’re too stubborn or stupid to acknowledge is the best help a defense can get besides points. they took a looot of time off with great runNing from lynch, good running and easy 1st downs from russ, and easy passing from both run games. if you can’t acknowledge those points listed above as true than im sorry but you’re blind. this year the Broncos run O will be better than the 13 seahawks and you will see true dominance.

      • eYeDEF

        Oh the irony. When I call you out on trying to make up a blatant lie to support your unsupportable argument based on the stats, eye test, PFF, FO, and everyone in the world except Broncos homers, what do you do? You try and change the subject and call me the idiot. WAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH. Except you keep proving you’re the idiot you stupid little boy. That’s why no one except your homer friends agree with you.

        The hawks played superior competition than the Broncos. It wasn’t even close. It’s funny you keep saying the Saints were good when they weren’t even as good as Arizona that year, which the Seahawks played twice. Deal with it.

        • TheTruth

          lol your put that sentence in bold i bet you felt reeeealll cold blooded. and Carson wasnt the same qb that year as this year nfl network ra ked him 11th. he was the highest graded qb this year. and Peterson wasnt top 3 yet he allowed 18 tds that year I believe, harris has allowed 3 since his rookie season, always finishing 3 in guarding the #1 wr and Johnson was not in his prime stop. and this Broncos Defense wouldve done the same exact thing. von is a better rusher than avril and bennet. Harris allowed no tds outside of the game where he faced the best pass attack with out the 1 2and 3 safeties. why don’t you go look at who they olayed, look at both schedules so you can actually be unbiased. and you’re just salty, you cant admit this Broncos D is better than the seahawks in 13. and youremember evem saltier that you guys can’t draft anymore and you only have 1 above average CB. and irvin left. Broncos have the best defense in the league still, there secondary is only getting better as theyou reach their prime, hawks have gotten worse every year. lost to the rams and let them score 36… russel even almost had a butt fumble but luckily he ran into okungs arm ahah. you’re probably also mad we got your best lineman and fixed ourate biggest weakness which os tackle, and hes perfect for our zone block system, and we also have the zone block guru back, Alex gibbs. and a tacole coming back from injury after being top 10 in pass protection as a rookie! and a C going into his 2md year starting who was top 15 and had a 3 game stretch pff says is almost twice as good as the next 3 game stretch by any C. and we dropped the deadweight that is manning who could barely throw 10 yards and was barely more mobile than Stonehenge amd replaced him with a 6’7 running qb with a cannon bigger tham manning ever had, and hes going into the friendliest qb system. being coached by maybe the 2nd best at that system, and we have the best teacher of the zone block ever.

          • eYeDEF

            Waha, that’s some funny shit. First, Harris sucks. He can’t shadow the opposing #1 in man and has to play within the limits of Denver’s seven man zone to be successful. He also got spanked by Antonio Brown who caught for 200 yards and two touchdowns on him in one game. Meanwhile Sherman shut down Brown while shadowing him all over the field this past season. Hawks have a true shutdown corner and Broncos do not. Second, Miller is just one guy while Bennett and Avril and Clemons are 3. That’s why hawks have better pass rush. So game over, you lose. That’s why everyone agrees with me because the facts are on my side while you constantly have to make up your own facts that no one believes. And yes, it makes me feel gangsta to get to beat you down.

        • TheTruth

          and malik is being replaced by walker who played more than half the snaps last year and had a grade much higher than malik in the run